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• Misc. Star Trek

Why don't the Borg use genetic engineering and cloning?

• Thread starter The Borg Queen
• Start date Aug 24, 2007

The Borg Queen

Rear admiral.

• Aug 24, 2007

If you ignore the whole "poor writing" aspect of the Borg, that is...  

Trekker4747

Boldly going....

The Borg Queen said: If you ignore the whole "poor writing" aspect of the Borg, that is... Click to expand...

The Borg use genetic engineering--the nanoprobes' assimilation process rewrites victims' DNA to match Borg genetic patterns. As for cloning, maybe the Borg see the same problem with replicative fading. While they do seemingly clone the Queen, perhaps they find it more efficient to simply plunder the galaxy of available resources -- fresh bodies instead of expending the energy to clone. Finally, assimilation offers the benefits of new individual knowledge and cultures...something that a clone cannot do. A clone is more of the same.  

For that matter. How do we know the Borg DON'T clone?  

Boss Monster Mod

Fleet admiral.

Granted that we lack evidence either way, on most aspects of the argument. Take the cloning of Queens: both the Thompson and Krige models have appeared, died, and appeared again. So either the Borg clone the bodies of satisfactory Species 129 individuals whenever they need a curvaceous Queen - or then this Species 129 features only a limited number of phenotypes that naturally repeat (like the Benzites seem to, as per "A Matter of Honor"). It may also be that the various Kriges do not actually look anything alike: only the heads, which are artificial through and through, are identical. And yes, the Borg might have been their VOY selves all along, including before and during "Q Who?". They do have different mission profiles on different occasions; not every sortie would involve kidnapping Captain Picard and assimilating his crew. Finally, any abnormal Borg encountered may be just that. VOY suggests the Borg are secretive; so if our heroes ever actually encounter some Borg, these may be damaged or otherwise aberrant individuals who do not quite represent the mainstream Collective and its wish for secrecy. Timo Saloniemi  

Unicron said: Eh, while VOY was not perfect with the Borg I've seen nothing to suggest the Borg weren't already assimilating by the time of "Q Who?" The Borg Queen certainly supported this assumption in FC, and given how long the Collective has been around (thousands of centuries, according to Guinan), I think the most the D could have offered them was a new target. Click to expand...

Even more specifically, the God of Lies in "Q Who?" suggests the Borg are only interested in technology. And even if Q was being serious for that rare once, his comment about the Borg interests need only apply on that single moment in time. The Borg there could have been sated with assimilating the J-25ians, and would only have mild curiosity towards the E-D. Certainly we can't take Q's comments or Riker's observations and interpretations of the Borg as authoritative in any way. Even Guinan's insinuations may be colored by her hatred. This is the first time our heroes meet this radically different species, after all - they are bound to get a good number of misconceptions that won't be sorted out until much later. Even without "reimaging" TNG in any way, we could say the Borg there were always the same as in VOY. They assimilate Picard by sticking a tubule in his neck, at which point his skin color changes. They could have done the very thing to Riker, Worf or Crusher if they had reached hand-to-hand range - but they didn't, except with Data who couldn't be injected, and Worf, who managed to grab the Drone's arm long enough to prevent the tubules from piercing... Timo Saloniemi  

Even without nanoprobe DNA adjustmant the "borging" process seems to negate most advantages you'd get from genetic engineering. And it doesn't seem like shortage of manpower is a problem for the borg. I mean they assimilate whole civilian populations. They're probably limited by dilithium deposits or some other unreplicable material.  

Cary L. Brown

Just as a side note... the first time we saw the "Borg Baby" in Q-Who, I assumed that the baby we saw was not a captured and then assimilated baby, but rather was a "native" Borg infant. And I doubt that Borg have sex, so I assumed that this baby was conceived in-vitro and "grown" in an incubator. The only issue, really, is "is the baby a clone" or is it a new genetic combination of two (or more?) sets of DNA available? See, that's not "cloning." But I suspect that it's very much "the way of the Borg."  

Timo said: Even more specifically, the God of Lies in "Q Who?" suggests the Borg are only interested in technology. And even if Q was being serious for that rare once, his comment about the Borg interests need only apply on that single moment in time. The Borg there could have been sated with assimilating the J-25ians, and would only have mild curiosity towards the E-D. Certainly we can't take Q's comments or Riker's observations and interpretations of the Borg as authoritative in any way. Even Guinan's insinuations may be colored by her hatred. This is the first time our heroes meet this radically different species, after all - they are bound to get a good number of misconceptions that won't be sorted out until much later. Click to expand...

Even without "reimaging" TNG in any way, we could say the Borg there were always the same as in VOY. They assimilate Picard by sticking a tubule in his neck, at which point his skin color changes. They could have done the very thing to Riker, Worf or Crusher if they had reached hand-to-hand range - but they didn't, except with Data who couldn't be injected, and Worf, who managed to grab the Drone's arm long enough to prevent the tubules from piercing... Click to expand...

Cary L. Brown said: Just as a side note... the first time we saw the "Borg Baby" in Q-Who, I assumed that the baby we saw was not a captured and then assimilated baby, but rather was a "native" Borg infant. Click to expand...

That's an interesting point. However, one could cry "RetCon" on the part of the VOY episode w/regards to what Seven said. Regardless, you could easily put a newly born artificially incepted Borg child in a maturation chamber. I'm sure they were looking for more of the horror angle, tho. Imagine what it must be like to be a newborn, toddler or even preschool child that is assimilated by the Borg. To me, that's even worse than being an adult and being assimiltated!  

Even more specifically, the God of Lies in "Q Who?" suggests the Borg are only interested in technology. Click to expand...

• Aug 25, 2007

... or that was never the intention from TNG and that same lack of intention lent itself to VOY deciding their own course. You also need to remember that however many years passed - both in the Real World and in the TNG/DS9/VOY universe - and that the Borgs agenda changed, as well. Especially when you throw Species 8472 in to the mix.  

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Published May 24, 2022

Strange New Worlds 101: Genetic Engineering

A deep dive into a divisive Starfleet topic

StarTrek.com

Spoilers for Star Trek: Strange New Worlds episode three to follow!

Welcome back to Strange New Worlds 101! We’ve tackled lighter topics like the Prime Directive and the Kirk family for the past two weeks, but today, we’re diving deep into one of the most controversial parts of Star Trek ’s canon: genetic engineering. This issue has been at the heart of many of Trek ’s most thoughtful episodes, and Strange New Worlds follows this trend.

Genetic engineering in Federation worlds is strictly forbidden after the Eugenics Wars on Earth. We get a hint at the Eugenics Wars when, in Star Trek: Picard season two, Dr. Soong has his medical license stripped away for his work in eugenics ; at the end of the season, the only file he has left is something titled “The Khan Project.” That name is enough to send chills down the spines of most Trek fans, as we know what that points to.

Khan Noonien Singh is perhaps the most iconic villain in the franchise. First introduced in the TOS episode “ Space Seed ,” Khan is a genetically engineered tyrant who, along with his fellow Augments, was banished from Earth following the Eugenics Wars and who later became a rival of Captain James Kirk. The wars centered on Augmented humans taking over parts of the planet and becoming dictators, ruling over their territories with an iron fist. Following the end of the second Eugenics War, which led into World War 3, genetic engineering was banned in Federation space, as Starfleet feared the rise of another Khan.

Genetic engineering might be illegal, but that didn’t stop some Federation families from seeking it out for their children. Star Trek: Deep Space Nine ’s Dr. Julian Bashir was revealed to be an Augment in the season five episode “Dr. Bashir, I Presume?” and was nearly removed from Starfleet as a result. Throughout the franchise, other societies that engaged in genetic engineering made appearances, but the rule against genetic engineering in Federation space never changed.

Genetic engineering plays a huge role in the latest Star Trek: Strange New Worlds episode, “Ghosts of Illyria.” The Illyrians are not a part of the Federation due to their genetic engineering, but they are a friendly species. However, in a dramatic moment, Una reveals she is Illyrian, and the reason that she is immune to the virus spreading across the Enterprise is due to her modifications. The cure may lie in her blood.

The other way that genetic engineering impacts the crew is via La’an Noonien Singh, a descendant of Khan himself. She has dealt with the stigma of her infamous relative for her entire life, which has not helped her when it comes to connecting with others. When Una’s secret comes out, she feels betrayed by a woman who helped her and who she considered a mentor and friend. While the episode ends with their bond tentatively mended, it’s still a shocking and important moment in their friendship.

At the end of the episode, Una offers to resign her commission and face consequences for lying about her genetic background, but Pike does not report her to Starfleet. Will this lead to problems down the road? Only the writers of the show know!

Read our recap of “Ghosts of Illyria” here , and let us know your favorite moment on social!

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Star Trek: Strange New Worlds streams exclusively on Paramount+ in the U.S., U.K., Australia, Latin America, Brazil, South Korea, France, Italy, Germany, Switzerland and Austria. In addition, the series airs on Bell Media’s CTV Sci-Fi Channel and streams on Crave in Canada and on SkyShowtime in the Nordics, the Netherlands, Spain, Portugal and Central and Eastern Europe. Star Trek: Strange New Worlds is distributed by Paramount Global Content Distribution.

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Star trek's federation knows its genetic engineering ban is wrong.

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Captain Kirk's "Death" Proves a Truly Dark Fact About Star Trek's Entire Universe

Star trek debuts its awe-inspiring council of the gods, confirming members from across franchise history, after 58 years, star trek is finally killing off scotty - theory explained.

Warning; contains spoilers for Star Trek: Strange New Worlds: The Illyrian Engima #1 The ban on genetic engineering in the Star Trek universe is wrong–and the Federation knows it. In IDW Publishing’s new Star Trek: Strange New Worlds: The Illyrian Enigma #1 , the crew deals with the fallout from the show’s season one finale, which saw Number One, who is genetically modified, arrested by Starfleet officials. Now, her crewmates are grappling with what has happened, making it clear this law is unfair, and unjust. The issue is on sale now in print and digital.

Genetic engineering is a crime in the United Federation of Planets, stemming from Khan Noonien Singh and his Augments, genetically modified humans who almost destroyed the Earth. This left a bad taste in humanity’s mouth, resulting in a ban on the practice centuries later. Of course, this has not stopped humans from trying, and genetic modification became a central plot point in not only Star Trek: Deep Space Nine (where the rule was first introduced) but also Star Trek: Into Darkness . Strange New Worlds has picked this plot point up; Una Chin-Riley, AKA Number One, is a genetically modified Illyrian. Una lied on her Starfleet application, omitting that she was Illyrian. When the truth came to light, she was arrested and taken into custody.

Related: Star Trek Announces Release of DS9's "Lost Episode"-The Dog of War

Now, her Enterprise crew mates are grappling with what happened. Uhura, Ortegas and Nurse Chapel are having dinner in the mess hall–and discussing the situation regarding Number One. Uhura calls the situation “complicated,” while Ortegas believes that the ban is “archaic” and a slap in the face to the concepts of diversity and acceptance–pillars upon which the Federation is built. Nurse Chapel explains that the Illyrians are still largely unknown and judging them by Federation standards is unfair. Uhura decides that Starfleet will not listen to them on the matter, so they must make them listen. The issue is written by Kirsten Beyer and Mike Johnson, illustrated by Megan Levens, colored by Charlie Kirchoff and lettered by Neil Uyetake.

The Federation's Ban on Genetics is Reactionary

The Federation’s stance on genetic engineering is a sticky one , arising from a dark chapter in human history. Genetically modified super people did indeed almost destroy Earth; the adage “once bitten, twice shy” applies here. Yet the Federation’s official position on the topic is reactionary, and short-sighted. First, there are species, such as the Illyrians, who practice it on the regular, and it is warp and woof in their culture. Ortegas is correct in that expecting other species to adhere to this rule runs counter to the Federation’s principles of diversity and tolerance; why are other species being punished for the actions of 20th/21st-century humans? Furthermore, what if genetic engineering could save lives? This topic has been explored in various Star Trek shows and novels, particularly with the character of Doctor Julian Bashir from Deep Space Nine. The ban on genetic engineering still persists to the 24th century, meaning the crew of the Enterprise will not convince the Federation to do an about-face. While they will no doubt be successful in eventually freeing Una, the ban will stand.

The topic of genetic engineering in the Star Trek universe is here to stay; not only has Strange New Worlds explored the ramifications of the ban, but Star Trek: Prodigy as well. Both shows have taken nuanced looks at the law, but one thing is clear: the ban is wrong–and the Federation knows it.

Next: Star Trek's New Godlike Species Explained: The Shapers of Sarkadesh

Star Trek: Strange New Worlds: The Illyrian Enigma #1 is on sale now from IDW Publishing!

Genetic engineering

A portrait of Khan Noonien Singh, a man who was a product of genetic engineering

Genetic engineering , genetic programming , or genetic manipulation was a process in which the DNA of an organism was selectively altered through artificial means. Genetic engineering was often used to produce "custom" organisms, such as for agricultural or medical purposes, as well as to produce biogenic weapons . The most common application of genetic engineering on intelligent beings in the Federation was corrective DNA resequencing for genetic disorders. A far more dubious application of genetic engineering was the genetic enhancement of individuals to produce improved senses, strength, intelligence, etc.

• 7 External links

During Earth 's 20th century , the efforts of ambitious scientists' to produce "superhumans" known as Augments eventually resulted in the Eugenics Wars . Genetically engineered individuals such as Khan Noonien Singh attempted to seize power. ( TOS : " Space Seed ")

This led to the banning of genetic engineering on Earth decades before the mid- 22nd century , even research which could be used to cure critical illnesses. The ban was implemented because of the general fear of creating more tyrants such as Khan. It was also felt that parents would feel compelled to have their children genetically engineered, especially if "enhanced" individuals were allowed to compete in normal society.

A line from ENT : " Affliction " established the date of the technology being banned as "decades" before 2154 .

However, certain individuals, including geneticist Arik Soong , argued that it was simply convenient for Humanity to denounce the attempts at genetic "improvement" of Humanity, and that it was inherently evil because of the Eugenics Wars. He argued that the source of the problem was not, in fact the technology, but Humanity's own inability to use it wisely. Imprisoned for, among other crimes, stealing the embryos of a number of Augment children, Soong wrote long treatises on the subject of genetic augmentations and improvements. His works were routinely taken and placed into storage (although his jailers often told him that his work was vaporized). Though Soong himself gave up genetics to begin research in cybernetics , Captain Jonathan Archer expressed his hope to Soong that research into genetic engineering could cure life-threatening diseases would someday be resumed. ( ENT : " Borderland ", " The Augments ") Soong's protégés would continue his work using artificial hybrid speciation , resulting in at least one hybrid who was classified as a Human Augment with the most recessive genetic traits of 26 species in his DNA. ( PRO : " Preludes ")

In 2256 , Paul Stamets modified his own DNA by splicing in tardigrade DNA so that he could operate the spore drive personally. ( DIS : " Choose Your Pain ") As a result, Stamets lived outside of time. ( DIS : " Face the Strange ")

Symbols used to indicate presence of genetically engineered lifeform

Others, however, chose to establish isolated colonies , as became the case with the Genome colony on Moab IV , which was established in 2168 . It became a notable and successful example of Human genetic engineering in which every individual was genetically tailored from birth to perform a specific role in society. However, after a five-day visit by the USS Enterprise -D – when the ship came to the colony in an effort to save it from an approaching neutron star which, eventually, the craft was able to effectively redirect – twenty-three colonists left the colony aboard the craft, possibly causing significant damage to the structure of their society. The reason for the societal split was that those who left the colony had realized their organized, pre-planned world had certain limitations, lacking the opportunities to grow that were offered by the Enterprise , and by extension, the Federation. ( TNG : " The Masterpiece Society ")

By the 24th century , the United Federation of Planets allowed limited use of genetic engineering to correct existing genetically related medical conditions. Genetic enhancement or augmentation, however, was forbidden by Federation law. Persons known to be genetically enhanced were not allowed to serve in Starfleet , and were especially banned from practicing medicine, specifically to avoid a recurrent of the Eugenics Wars and the creation of more Augments like Khan Noonien Singh . Those found guilty of practicing genetic enhancement could face prison for violating eugenics laws. ( TNG : " Genesis "; DS9 : " Doctor Bashir, I Presume ")

Nevertheless, some parents attempted to secretly have their children genetically modified. ( DS9 : " Doctor Bashir, I Presume ") Unfortunately, most of these operations were performed by unqualified physicians, resulting in severe psychological problems in the children due to their enhancements being only partially successful, such as a patient's senses being enhanced while their ability to process the resulting data remained at a Human norm. ( DS9 : " Statistical Probabilities ")

One notable exception to advanced genetic research in Human genetics was that allowed at the Darwin Genetic Research Station , under the purview of Dr. Kingsley . In the case of their research, the resulting products were said to have not been genetically engineered, but genetically "created." The children created were " perfect in every way, " that was, " their body structure, their musculature, their minds. " They also had extremely aggressive immune systems and possessed telepathy and telekinesis . ( TNG : " Unnatural Selection ")

In some cases, genetic engineering can be permitted to be performed in utero when dealing with a developing fetus to correct any potential genetic defects that could handicap the child as they grew up. Chakotay 's family history included a defective gene that made those who possessed it prone to hallucinations, the gene afflicting his grandfather in Chakotay's youth, although the gene was suppressed in Chakotay himself. ( VOY : " The Fight ") In 2377 , The Doctor performed prenatal genetic modification on Miral Paris to correct a spinal deviation, a congenital defect that tended to run in Klingon families; Miral's mother and grandmother had undergone surgery to correct the defect at a young age, but the modification meant Miral would not need surgery herself. Unfortunately, learning of this capability, B'Elanna briefly became obsessed with having her child modified to remove all Klingon DNA traits to try to "protect" her daughter from the discrimination she had experienced as a child, even going so far as to reprogram The Doctor so that he would believe these changes were necessary to prevent later illness, but she was talked out of it by her husband . ( VOY : " Lineage ")

Dominion [ ]

The Founders of the Dominion performed extensive genetic modifications on their two servant races, the Jem'Hadar and the Vorta , in order for them to better serve their roles and to ingrain a fanatical devotion to the Founders. ( DS9 : " The Abandoned ", " Ties of Blood and Water ") As a result of these modifications, neither species reproduced in the traditional biological sense. ( DS9 : " To the Death ")

According to Vorta legend, they were originally ape-like creatures who were gifted sentience by the Founders after they helped a Changeling escape pursuit. ( DS9 : " Treachery, Faith and the Great River ")

It is unknown whether the Jem'Hadar had any such ancestral species.

The Dominion also genetically engineered biological weapons , such as the blight they unleashed against the people of the Teplan system . ( DS9 : " The Quickening ")

Suliban [ ]

During the 22nd century, the Suliban were no more evolved than Humans. However, a number of Suliban, from a faction known as the Cabal , became recipients of some very sophisticated genetic engineering thanks to a mysterious humanoid from the 28th century . These enhancements included subcutaneous pigment sacs , a bio-mimetic garment , modified alveoli , more bronchial lobes , and eyes with compound retinas – which allowed them to see things starship sensors likely could not detect. The Suliban considered these "enhancements" as "progress". ( ENT : " Broken Bow ")

Klingons [ ]

• Klingon augment virus

When they were captured by a pre-warp civilization in 2152 , Jonathan Archer and Malcolm Reed claimed to be prototypes of a new breed of super soldiers to conceal the existence of alien life from the civilization. ( ENT : " The Communicator ")

Genetic engineering had been employed on Denobula since the 20th century, to generally positive effect. Dr. Phlox indicated that unlike Soong, the Denobulans had not attempted to redesign their species, a significant ethical counterpoint. ( ENT : " Borderland ")

Genetic programming was Surmak Ren 's major field of study at the University of Bajor . ( DS9 : " Babel ")

The Angosians used psychological and biochemical modifications and mental programming to make the perfect soldier such as Roga Danar . ( TNG : " The Hunted ")

The Tosk were engineered by the Hunters to be prey for their traditional hunts. ( DS9 : " Captive Pursuit ")

The Son'a used genetic manipulation as part of a range of strategies to retard aging. ( Star Trek: Insurrection )

The Brunali were proficient at genetic engineering, which they used to create modified crops capable of surviving on their Borg -devastated homeworld . However, they also genetically engineered some of their children to produce a pathogen deadly to Borg. These children were then allowed to be assimilated , so that they could spread the infection to their Borg vessels. Icheb was one such child, the pathogen causing the cube that he was on to break down, killing all of the active drones and causing the young drones in their maturation chambers to activate before they were fully processed into the Collective. ( VOY : " Child's Play ")

The Taresians used genetic engineering in tandem with a form of biological weaponry to manipulate the DNA of other species. This occurred to Ensign Harry Kim in 2373 , who was infected with a virus that altered his DNA to make him a potential Taresian mate. ( VOY : " Favorite Son ")

Illyrians practiced genetic modification as a form of reverse terraforming : instead of modifying the planetary environment to suit themselves, they modified themselves to suit nature. Commander Una Chin-Riley , an Illyrian posing as Human in order to serve in Starfleet, referred to it as "seek[ing] collaboration with nature." ( SNW : " Ghosts of Illyria ")

See also [ ]

• Genetic resequencer
• Life prolongation project

External links [ ]

• Genetic engineering at Memory Beta , the wiki for licensed Star Trek works
• Genetic engineering at Wikipedia
• 1 Daniels (Crewman)
• 3 World War III

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Star Trek and Genetic Engineering

Moderator: Vympel

Post by Stravo » Mon Jul 11, 2011 2:18 pm

Re: Star Trek and Genetic Engineering

Post by neoolong » Mon Jul 11, 2011 3:32 pm

Post by Ryag Han » Mon Jul 11, 2011 3:42 pm

Post by Stofsk » Mon Jul 11, 2011 5:02 pm

Post by Stofsk » Mon Jul 11, 2011 6:49 pm

Post by TOSDOC » Mon Jul 11, 2011 7:24 pm

Post by Crazedwraith » Mon Jul 11, 2011 7:41 pm

Stofsk wrote: He hilariously got the dates wrong though with regards to the Eugenics wars. The admiral dude said two centuries when at that point it would have been closer to four.

adr wrote: Interestingly, this was a last minute decision. Alexander Siddig said he didn't know about his genetic modification storyline it until a couple days before they filmed that episode, and he was pretty annoyed about it.

Post by Ryag Han » Mon Jul 11, 2011 7:57 pm

Post by Batman » Tue Jul 12, 2011 12:05 am

TOSDOC wrote: Other Sci-Fi seems to get along quite well with genetic manipulation, however. The Honor Harrington series sees a lot of the characters adapted to different colony worlds due to genetic manipulation, and none of them are psychotic as a result of the science. EDIT: typo

Post by Purple » Tue Jul 12, 2011 12:29 am

Post by Ryag Han » Tue Jul 12, 2011 12:59 am

Purple wrote: It's kind of ironic thou that in all its enlightenment human kind can not man up and forget the failings of the past. I know it's realistic but that's the point or rather the problem. Supposedly, trek is meant to represent an idealized humanity. A humanity that has outgrown superstition, greed and evil. And yet when you get down to it they are human after all.

Post by Batman » Tue Jul 12, 2011 1:17 am

Post by Ryag Han » Tue Jul 12, 2011 1:30 am

Batman wrote: Err-what, exactly, is the difference between 'humanity' and 'terrans'? Unless you think human colonists on other planets are somehow different? And you absolutely can idealize humanity, that's what TNG does. What you can't do is make it abide by that ideal. And whether or not you can change human nature, you can change human behaviour . That's why most countries on this planet no longer stone people for being the wrong religion and the ideas of 'yeah, maybe prisoners have rights afterall' or that maybe women actually can think and maybe should be allowed to vote came to pass.

Post by Batman » Tue Jul 12, 2011 1:32 am

Post by Ryag Han » Tue Jul 12, 2011 1:41 am

Batman wrote: You do know that 'Terra' means 'Earth' and thus 'Terrans' merely means 'people from Earth', right?

Post by Batman » Tue Jul 12, 2011 1:49 am

Ryag Han wrote: Batman wrote: You do know that 'Terra' means 'Earth' and thus 'Terrans' merely means 'people from Earth', right?

Post by Ryag Han » Tue Jul 12, 2011 1:50 am

Batman wrote: Ryag Han wrote: Batman wrote: You do know that 'Terra' means 'Earth' and thus 'Terrans' merely means 'people from Earth', right?

Post by Batman » Tue Jul 12, 2011 1:55 am

Post by Purple » Tue Jul 12, 2011 1:59 am

Batman wrote: Vee. That comes as a surprise. This is relevant to you blithely assuming terran automatically meaning you're talking about the mirror universe guys-how, exactly?

Post by Ryag Han » Tue Jul 12, 2011 2:00 am

Post by Batman » Tue Jul 12, 2011 2:02 am

Post by Batman » Tue Jul 12, 2011 2:08 am

Ryag Han wrote: Batman wrote: Vee. That comes as a surprise. This is relevant to you blithely assuming terran automatically meaning you're talking about the mirror universe guys-how, exactly?

Post by Setzer » Tue Jul 12, 2011 3:12 am

Post by Batman » Tue Jul 12, 2011 3:18 am

Post by Setzer » Tue Jul 12, 2011 3:21 am

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