kbs tour 120 wedge shaft

Which KBS wedge shaft best suits you?

Published: 26 May 2023 Last updated: 18 August 2023

Four KBS wedge shafts let golfers dial in spin, flight and feel, but which model best suits you? Let us explain…

Golfers spend huge amounts of time considering which shafts best suit them when buying a new driver or set of irons. Often, we hit an array of different options to progress toward finding the correct profile, weight and flex to optimize our ball flight. It’s a good investment of time, as through testing we learn how our swing launches shots into the air, and which shaft features optimize accuracy and power.

But when was the last time you gave a second thought to wedge shafts? Or which shaft could best suit your wedge game? Some wedge shafts are designed to spin shots more, whereas others target lower more penetrating shots. Some even promote a reliable drop, hop and stop tendency. The sort of stopping power that doesn’t annoyingly suck approaches instantly back off the green.

Steel shaft legends KBS make four different wedge shafts (you’ll find some in the best wedge models available), all so you can maximize your chances of getting up and down more often.

With all this shot-saving tech now available in shafts, we thought it was the perfect time to find out everything there is to know about each option. So, when you’re next buying wedges you can maximize your short-game potential.

KBS wedge shaft options

Kbs tour wedge shaft.

RRP: $41.95

Flex and Weight: R – 110g / S – 120g / X – 130g

Tip and Butt size: .355 Taper / .600 Butt

The KBS Tour iron shaft is the mothership of the brand. It’s the model all other KBS shafts are created from, so naturally the Tour wedge model was developed from it. KBS say the Tour is a great compliment to most golfers’ short games, because it’s so versatile. The model can create low, mid or high spin based on what players are trying to achieve from different situations.

It’s also a good fit for lots of different head shapes. As modern wedges often have high toe shapes and different center of gravity locations. The Tour is the brand’s most popular wedge shaft. It has a firm tip section, so golfers should expect excellent shot control and accuracy.

Interestingly, even the world’s best players can’t quite agree there’s one best wedge shaft out there for all. Former Open Champ Cameron Smith uses the Tour 130g wedge shaft, whereas Dustin Johnson plays the same profile but prefers the feel, feedback and responsiveness of the 120g model. This is a great indicator that wedge set-up and play is a very personal game.

K BS 610 wedge shaft

Flex and Weight: R – 110g / R+ – 115g/ S – 120g / S+ – 125g

Tip and Butt size: .355 Taper / .610 butt

The 610 has been specifically designed to deliver a slightly lower trajectory. The model is especially useful for golfers who often play in windy conditions. Where it’s necessary to flight shots lower into and below the wind – situations where you really don’t want shots to balloon up and lose control.

The 610 has a slightly bigger outside diameter, so it’s naturally a little firmer than the Tour. It comes into its own when players want to maintain stability in their wedge shafts, but also want a slightly lighter feel.

See the 610 as being at the opposite end of the spin scale to Hi-Rev 2.0. This model has a reputation for fostering a drop, hop and stop approach to cozying approaches up close to the flag.

This model is not designed to suck shots back off a green, like the KBS Hi-Rev 2.0.

KBS Hi-rev 2.0 wedge shaft

RRP: Chrome $41.95 /Black Gloss $59.95

Flex and Weight: R – 115g / S – 125g / X – 135g

KBS did tons of research and player testing a decade ago, back when they first started developing wedge shafts. They found by creating a slightly more active tip shaft (the Hi-Rev 2.0) they could increase wedge backspin by 400-500rpm.

The idea also increases launch, which leads to steeper descent angles and quicker stopping shots. And the numbers are significant enough to make a noticeable difference when shots need to hit the brakes on the slickest of putting surfaces.

R&D chief Kim Braly was really careful when designing the Hi-Rev to ensure he didn’t lose consistency, dispersion or feel. Which is always a possibility when employing an active tip section on any shaft.

Some tinkering was needed with step patterns, micro-tapers and the outside diameter to ensure golfers got a classic KBS feel, while dispersion patterns weren’t shot to pieces. Expect the Hi-Rev to launch significantly higher than the brand’s lowest launching 610 model. Plus you get the capacity to maximize spin potential. The KBS Hi-Rev 2.0 is the stock shaft in TaylorMade’s MG3 wedges .

KBS Tour-V wedge shaft

RRP: $47.95

Flex and Weight: S+ only – 125g

The Tour, 610 and Hi-Rev 2.0 wedge shafts were developed specifically for wedges, which means they’ll usually be played at 10-20g heavier than a golfers iron shafts. Where the Tour-V is a progression of the brands corresponding iron shaft. The Tour-V is available in one flex/weight only. It’s needed within the line-up to allow the brand to dial in the wedge feel and performance of players like Viktor Hovland and Phil Mickelson who both play Tour-V iron shafts.

Like the 610 the Tour-V is not a backspin maximizer. But, what it does for Mickelson is allow him to be creative. So, if he needs to go high, he can, whereas he can also lean on shots and drive them aggressively forwards, too.

If you’re an average club golfer it’s unlikely you’ll need Tour-V wedge shafts. We’ve included them to show just how in-depth and far KBS go to ensure every base is covered. The family as a whole also highlights just how personal wedge shafts can be.

How do the KBS Tour, 610, Hi-Rev 2.0 and Tour-V wedge shafts compare?

TG test pro Neil Wain hit all four shafts (in a 52° Wilson Staff Model wedge head), with a premium urethane golf ball, full out, to a 110-yard target. Then to a 95-yard target, with a shortened knock-down swing. A launch monitor watched on so we could see how each model performed.

Our test pro reckoned he could barely feel a difference between the four shafts, which is really good news. It means no matter which model you choose, you won’t need to accept a hugely different feel to get the ball flight characteristics you want, just as KBS promises. 

We hit all four wedges with stiff shafts, a flex weaker than our test pro typically plays in his irons. This follows the modern trend of 50+% of tour pros choosing wedge shafts a flex weaker than their irons.

Why do they do that? Wedges are rarely swung at full tilt, so they don’t need to be quite as stiff as a 5-iron, which is sound, sensible thinking in our book. Lots of players also like the additional feel and feedback from wedges that are slightly weaker.

Our test data shows the Hi-Rev 2.0 produced the highest levels of backspin and launch angle, just like KBS promises. OK, there’s not huge amounts in it. Just 368rpm more spin, which equates to almost 4% additional stopping power. But don’t forget the top priority for KBS is usually satisfying ultra-fussy tour pros. And if there’s any gain to be had they of course want to exploit it.

Verdict: KBS wedge shafts

Based on this performance our recommendation is to think very seriously about wedge shafts if you’re buying new wedges any time soon. Enlist the help of an experienced wedge fitter to maximize your chances of getting things right and avoid costly mistakes.

Cavity back iron players are likely, to avoid a big jump in weight between your irons and wedges, to need slightly lighter wedge shafts. Typically, 10-20g is a good weight gap between irons and wedges.

And finally, don’t write off using different shafts in each wedge. This is an approach Matt Kuchar uses on tour. See each wedge as an independent club with a specific purpose, then tailor it to do that job.

So, if you want maximum height, spin and stopping power from your sand or lob wedge, explore the Hi-Rev 2.0 shaft. Whereas for your 52° gap wedge when precision and accuracy are absolutely paramount, the Tour shaft could be the key to unlocking the performance you’re after.     

READ NEXT – Which KBS iron shaft is right for you?

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About the author

Simon Daddow –  Today’s Golfer  Equipment Editor

Simon Daddow is the Equipment Editor for Today’s Golfer. Having tested and played more than 10,000 clubs in his life, what he doesn’t know about golf clubs isn’t worth knowing.

He’s a specialist in all things metal having spent a large part of his career as a golf club maker and product development manager, and has worked in the golf industry for more than 30 years. Starting out as trainee professional at Downes Crediton GC where he learned the art of golf club making, he went onto work for Clubhaus Plc and Tony Charles Ltd as a golf club maker, and running Product Development at  Benross Golf .

Simon also spent time working as a Sales Executive in  Harrods’  golf department, even helping supply Sir Nick Faldo with personalized shirts in a last-minute emergency ahead of a flight to a tournament.

He joined EMAP Active (now Bauer Media) as Equipment Editor in 2006 and has worked for both  Today’s Golfer  and  Golf World.  Working alongside our test pro Neil Wain, Simon has made todays-golfer.com the most reliable source for golf club testing.

Despite his youthful looks, Simon has played golf for more than 40 years and plays to a handicap of 10. A lack of club speed means he’s short off the tee, but very handy from 125 yards and in.

He enjoys excellent relationships with the biggest names in the golf equipment industry, including PXG boss Bob Parsons and TaylorMade’s Tomo Bystedt and Adrian Rietveld.

Away from the course, Simon is a season-ticket holder at Peterborough United Football Club, attending games with his young son. He’s also a keen cyclist and enjoys working (and relaxing) at his allotment.

His favorite ever piece of golf equipment is the Callaway Warbird fairway wood and he considers the biggest technological advancement in the game to have been titanium driver heads.

Simon’s job means he plays regularly around the world, and rates Kingsbarns as his favorite course. He uses a  PXG 0311 GEN6 XF driver ,  TaylorMade Stealth 2 HL  (15º),  Ping G400  (20.5º),  PXG 0317 X Gen2 hybrid ,  PXG 0311 GEN6 P irons  (6–PW),  Cleveland CBX2 wedges  (52°, 58°),  Ping 21 Fetch putter  and a  TaylorMade Tour Response golf ball .

You can contact Simon via  email  and follow him on  Twitter  for loads more golf equipment insight.

KBS Tour 120 Shaft Review – Specs, Flex, Weight

Your driver sets the tone for each hole you play; but it’s your irons that typically get you to the pin.

And if you’re using the wrong shaft on your irons, you’ll be left floundering on the fairway. For stronger swingers that demand both precision and smooth feel, KBS offers the KBS Tour 120.

The KBS Tour 120 sits in the middle-ground between the heaviest and lightest KBS Tour shafts. These are steel iron shafts with a mid kick point that you can actually feel. But who should be gaming the KBS Tour 120 shafts? Are they the shafts you need to  land more GIRs? Let’s talk about it?

KBS Tour 120 Shaft Overview

As far as looks goes, KBS keeps things very simple with all their shafts.

The KBS Tour 120 has modest polished chrome finish with black lettering on a black background in the middle of the shaft. The KBS Tour series is known for offering players a smooth feel without sacrificing stability – and the KBS Tour 120 is no exception.

When you load up on these shafts, you get an active release that you can feel. But you never get the feeling that the club head is out of control. Instead, you get a smooth release even when you really load up on the shaft.

A lot of people tend to compare the KBS Tour series to True Temper’s Dynamic Gold series of shafts. But from our experience, the KBS Tour 120 yields a higher launch and is more congenial for players who have a sweeping swing. So the KBS Tour 120 is better for us mortals.

Why is the KBS Tour 120 So Popular?

Probably because of exposure.

The KBS Tour series of shafts are gamed by some of the highest-profile players in golf. But beyond that, the KBS Tour 120 is a great middle-weight option if you are looking for better stability from your irons.

How Does the KBS Tour 120 Perform?

One thing that we really liked about the KBS Tour 120 was that we were never afraid to unleash a 110% swing.

The KBS Tour 120 is stout enough to let you swing above yourself but it never feels noodly in the hands. The transition is very smooth with a mid kick point.

The launch is mid-high and the spin rates are average as well. The KBS Tour 120 also works with the player very well. We got the sense that the shaft was doing more than its fair share of the work, meaning that the energy transfer felt very efficient. Our testers were getting very good club head speed with these shafts and we believe it’s because of the active release.

Distance increases were notable as well. We were averaging 160.3 yards with our 4-irons equipped with the KBS Tour 120. Part of what makes the KBS Tour 120 still feel so stable is the stiffer tip section. All the action is in the middle and the tip stays stout on the release.

KBS Tour 120 Shaft Specs

What flexes are available what swing speeds do they suit.

We tested the KBS Tour 120 specifically and the 120 gram version only comes in stiff flex.

That being said, the KBS Tour 120 was versatile and played well for almost all of our testers. If you’re swinging your 4-iron above 90 MPH, you should do well with the KBS Tour 120.

What Weights Are Available? What Swing Speeds Do They Suit?

Again, the KBS Tour 120 specifically is only available in a 120 gram version.

If you have an average iron swing speed, you should have no problem with this shaft. Even some of our testers who swing their 4-iron under 90 MPH were still getting good distance and feel from the KBS Tour 120.

Why is it So Good?

The answer to this question is surely subjective but for us, the KBS Tour 120 performs well because it’s stable and consistent.

Whether you’re really leaning into your swing or chipping the ball in from close range, you can expect stable and straight flight with this shaft.

KBS Tour 120 First Impressions

After our first few swings with the KBS Tour 120, we were impressed with the active feel.

The more we swang, the more we realized that this shaft is not likely to ever be erratic. After just a few swings, you learn exactly what to expect from it.

Key Features & Performance

KBS doesn’t offer much insight as to what goes into the manufacturing process for the KBS Tour 120.

But to be honest, we don’t really care. What matters is that the KBS Tour 120 offers a controlled launch, straight ball flight and is excellent for players who tend to hit the ball low.

KBS Tour 120 Irons Review

The KBS Tour 120 is consistent no matter what your lie is like. It won’t make your irons ridiculously heavy; but it will likely add some stability. If you want to swap your graphite iron shafts for steel ones, the KBS Tour 120 is a good choice because the transition will be less jarring for you.

KBS Tour 120 Wedges Review

We were very impressed how the KBS Tour 120 shaft performed from the sand. It feels stable even if you chunk. You’re still able to make good contact and your ball flight will be more stable with these shafts.

KBS Tour 120 Pros & Cons

• Good for a variety of swing speeds
• Not too heavy
• Mid kick point
• Smooth release
• Not great if you need higher launch
• Relatively high spin in the long irons

Overall Score: 95/100

Check out more reviews here:.

Who Should Buy it?

The KBS Tour 120 would be a great choice for mid to high handicappers or anyone looking to make the jump from graphite to steel iron shafts.

They are also great if you tend to hit the ball low.

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Aidan Lehane here, I’m a Mid-low handicap golfer who has made tremendous progress in breaking 90 in just over 1 year of playing golf seriously.

I get out to the course or range as often as possible and review all the equipment I’ve come across on this blog.

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Kbs Tour Shaft Review

$ 41.99

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The KBS Tour Iron Shafts – Stiff Flex – .355 Taper Tip (4I – S – 120g) by Tour Shop Fresno are an excellent choice for golfers in search of reliable and compatible iron shafts. These shafts have been designed with careful consideration of technical details and customer feedback, resulting in a product that delivers exceptional performance. With precision engineering and high-quality materials, the script of these shafts ensures a responsive and accurate feel, making every swing a masterpiece. You demand the best from your equipment, and the KBS Tour Iron Shafts deliver just that.

• Description
• Where to buy

Key Features

Kbs tour shaft detailed review, design and technology, where can i find the best deals or discounts on kbs tour iron shafts, can i install kbs tour iron shafts on my own, or do i need to take them to a professional for installation, are there any specific club heads that the kbs tour iron shafts are not compatible with, can i customize the kbs tour iron shafts with different grips or colors, do kbs tour iron shafts come with a warranty or guarantee, how does the tour shaft compare, project x lz, kbs c-taper, n.s. pro modus 3.

Updated February 2024 to update current pricing information.

KBS is named after its owner and founder Kim Braly. KBS has worked closely with PGA professionals to build golf shafts that offer versatility and a controlled ball flight. The KBS Tour shaft was designed for players of all abilities. The KBS Tour steel shaft is a mid-trajectory iron and wedge shaft that gives the player a signature smooth feel. The KBS Tour maximizes energy transfer to give players more lift and easier launch with their irons and wedges. Amateur players will love the responsive feel of the KBS Tour and the control of this top-of-the-line golf shaft is trusted by some of the world’s best players.

• 5% lower trajectory, less spin , and more distance gives players an easy-to-hit iron shaft that matches their swings.  
• The KBS signature feel is smooth and responsive and gives players more options even at lower swing speeds .  
• The range of weight and flex options make the KBS Tour available to golfers of almost any fee preference.

The KBS Tour golf shaft is designed with every golfer in mind. With 6 flex and weight ranges, the KBS Tour shaft can be built to any playing preference and ball flight. Used by some of the world’s best golfers, KBS shafts are known for their impressive responses and smooth feel. Players looking to get their irons fit for more distance and accuracy need to be testing the KBS Tour shaft. The first thing that stood out to me during my testing of the KBS Tour shaft was the signature feel that Mr. Braly promises. The KBS Tour shaft is one of the easiest shafts to hit and didn’t require my best swing to get a controlled and accurate ball flight. Playing my iron shafts at 125-grams, I tested the Stiff+ model of the KBS Tour shafts. I thought for the majority of golfers, the KBS Tour iron shaft is a fantastic option and would not hesitate to put it into the hands of players with a variety of swing speeds. KBS delivers a golf shaft that is easy to launch and a pleasure to swing. The KBS Tour is one of the best shafts for players that swing below tour-level swing speeds but desire the ultimate control with their irons and wedges. The KBS Tour shafts are truly versatile and great for players with smooth tempos, especially with high and mid-handicaps .

The KBS Tour Iron Shafts - Stiff Flex - .355 Taper Tip (4I - S - 120g) by Tour Shop Fresno are an excellent choice for golfers in search of reliable and compatible iron shafts. These shafts have been designed with careful consideration of technical details and customer feedback, resulting in a product that delivers exceptional performance. With precision engineering and high-quality materials, the script of these shafts ensures a responsive and accurate feel, making every swing a masterpiece. You demand the best from your equipment, and the KBS Tour Iron Shafts deliver just that.

• Smooth feel and mid-launch attributes help the KBS Tour appeal to a variety of skill levels and swing speeds.
• KBS technology delivers maximum energy transfer for more distance, less spin, and more control.
• Aggressive players looking for a more penetrating ball flight may be better suited to a higher kick-point option.
• The responsive feel may seem too active for players that prefer more rigid iron and wedge shafts.
• Many sets will not come standard with KBS Tour shafts and may require an additional charge to purchase.

The KBS Tour steel shaft comes in six unique models. Increasing in weight and flex, the KBS Tour is available in 110-gram regular, 115-gram regular+, 120-gram stiff, 125-gram stiff+, and 130-gram x-stiff. Each shaft is available in lengths cut to 1 iron through sand and lob wedge lengths and can be custom fit for golfers of any height.

The KBS Tour shaft is one of the best golf shafts for players that do not swing the golf club with an aggressive style or at tour-level speeds. Low, mid, and high handicap players that want more response and a smoother feel in their irons or wedges will love the KBS Tour shafts. By giving players more energy transfer in the shaft design, KBS has created a versatile, easy-to-hit golf shaft that can help a wide range of golfer’s games.

Frequently Asked Questions

I’ve found the best prices for KBS Tour iron shafts at online retailers. They often offer discount options and a wider selection compared to local stores. I recommend checking out multiple online retailers for the best deals.

I can definitely do a DIY installation of KBS Tour Iron Shafts. It’s relatively straightforward with the right tools and instructions. However, if you’re uncertain, a professional installation could ensure optimal performance. When comparing costs, check online retailers for the best deals.

I can install KBS Tour Iron Shafts on my own, but I need to ensure compatibility with specific club heads. It’s essential to check compatibility and consider professional installation for optimal performance. The shaft customization process should also consider warranty implications.

Yes, you can customize the KBS Tour iron shafts with different grips and colors to fit your preferences. However, it’s essential to consider how these changes may impact the shaft performance.

Yes, KBS Tour Iron Shafts come with a warranty. The warranty coverage ensures product guarantees. You can be confident in the durability and quality of these shafts, knowing that they are backed by a warranty.

The Project X LZ packages Project X performance and control into a smoother, easy to manage golf shaft. The Project X LZ is designed with Loading Zone Technology to give players better energy transfer and more distance. A thinner middle section allows golfers to launch the Project X LZ higher without losing control of their golf ball. Golfers of all abilities and swing speeds looking for a mid-launch iron or wedge shaft with improved feel and control should be testing the newest steel offering from Project X in the LZ model.

Project X LZ Shaft Review

The C-Taper is a perfect complement to the KBS Tour golf shaft. The C-Taper was designed from Tour player feedback to give players a more penetrating trajectory and greater shot control. Players looking to bring their ball flights down into more controlled windows can look to the C-Taper shaft to give them better distance and accuracy in a crisp feel. Aggressive players with a quick swing tempo can get better results with the C-Taper from KBS.

Kbs C Taper Shaft Review

The Modus 3 is a complete golf shaft offering from Nippon Golf. The Modus 3 line of shafts uses a tier system to give golfers more options in their custom fit. Matching a swing weight and flex profile to golfer swing styles, release patterns, and club head speeds give Nippon an unmatched array of custom fitting options. No matter what your feel, ball flight, and weight preferences are, Nippon has created a Modus 3 shaft designed to help you play better golf. The widest range of weight-to-flex ratios help make the Modus 3 a club fitter and serious golfer’s dream.

Nippon Pro Modus 3 Shaft Review

Videos: Kbs Tour Shaft Review

As the Founder of Golfers Authority Paul Liberatore Esq. has spent the last 7+ years writing about the best golf equipment or instruction from the top golf instructors in the world. He has been a contributing writer for Sports Illustrated Golf and GolfWRX. After graduating with honors from Purdue University, he realized that he had a passion for the golf business and the law. When he's not practicing law, or creating golf content on YouTube, he can be found on his syndicated Behind the Golf Brand podcast talking with the most prolific leaders in the golf industry. 

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KBS Tour-V Wedge Shaft Review

More in shafts:.

50 Words or Less

The KBS Tour-V wedge shaft is a great extension beyond your pitching wedge, but isn’t necessarily a spin maximizer.

Introduction

The wedge portion of the bag tends to be a make or break portion for a lot of golfers from the high-handicap amateur through the scratch player.  The fact of the matter is that understanding your needs and your own game is no easy task.  Some players need a shaft in their wedge to generate as much spin as possible whereas other players are looking for their sand wedge to play as an extension of their iron set.   The KBS Tour-V wedge shaft does the latter and is very strong in doing so.

If you have any familiarity with KBS shafts, the KBS Tour-V wedge shaft will come as no surprise.  The look is a plain chrome shaft with steps and a simple KBS shaft band that’s prevalent enough to let you know what your shaft is, but far from distracting.  Simplicity goes a long way with steel shafts and this fact is not lost on KBS.

Feel is a bit interesting for the KBS Tour-V wedge shaft .  You can definitely feel the ball, but you don’t necessarily have a super dialed in and in-tune feel.  For comparative purposes, most wedge shafts that are designed to have a little extra response in the hands are going to have more feel than the KBS Tour-V wedge shaft.  Generally, the Tour-V wedge shaft excels on full shots like it’s an extension of your iron set and gets a little stout for the touch shots closer to the green.  If you’re looking for a little more life in your wedge shaft, I would strongly recommend going with a different option.  If you’re looking to hit your sand and lob wedges better with full swings, the Tour-V wedge shaft is exactly the feel you’re looking for.

Performance

As you have likely noticed by now, I keep mentioning that the KBS Tour-V wedge shaft is a great extension of your iron set and not so much a pitch and chip high-spin monster.  Installed in my 54º sand wedge, I was hitting the Tour-V wedge shaft 100 to 115 yard shots just as easy as a pitching wedge , but when I had to be cute around the green, I struggled.  To “check my math” I dumped the same club in the hands of a scratch player and club fitter at Club Champion, and he found the same thing.  His feedback was that he could really step on it for fuller shots, but he felt the stout feeling and response around the green made it one-trick pony for him near the green.  There’s nothing wrong with that if it fits your game, but it’s an important factor to keep in mind as you set up your bag and decide what’s important to you in your club rig.

At the time of this review, I’m still in the midst of figuring out what my wedge game looks like at “this stage of my career.”  When I feel good around the greens, I’m terrible using them as full swing clubs.  When I’m good using a sand wedge for that 100 yard shot, it seems I struggle around the green.  What I’ve found with the KBS Tour-V wedge shaft , along with the feedback from some other golfers, is that it’s a great option for full swing shots .  Around the greens, the Tour-V was great for pitches that were kept relatively low and ran out, but not for biting and stopping on a dime.  The Tour-V is a good shaft, you just need to make sure you know how it responds for you.

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Hey Bill- Thanks for all of your great reviews and insight. How would you compare the Tour V Wedge shaft and the 610 Wedge shaft as far as launch and spin. Also, which, in your opinion, is “easier” to work with as far as different trajectory and spin? Thanks for your assistance and input

Bill no longer writes for Plugged In Golf, so he cannot answer this question.

@Merlin Both wedge shafts are low spin shafts. The KBS 610 wedge shaft is essentially the ‘big brother’ of the KBS Tour V wedge shaft, and also features a slightly larger butt diameter than the Tour V. The slightly larger butt diameter might feel ok in the hands of some players, but for others it may not. The Tour V wedge shaft is also designed to launch slightly higher than the 610. I have been testing the Tour V 125 S+ in my 50*-degree gap wedge, and have found it becoming more and more comfortable to hit as time goes on, as it is basically like a point-and-shoot sniper rifle, designed to reduce dispersion as much as possible when attacking pins. The step pattern of the Tour V wedge shaft is also quite condensed to allow for thicker shaft walls to reach further down the length of the shaft, as this is what helps it eliminate dispersion, but may also make it feel too “stout” in the hands of some players. The Tour V is quite a stiff feeling shaft I would say, but for players who are physically strong enough to swing it or generally prefer gaming stiffer shafts, it’s a wedge shaft that should work quite well. I would also recommend the Tour V as a good shaft to try for players who have a quicker, more violent swing transition from backswing to fore-swing. However, the Tour V is also available in lighter iron shaft weights (100g/110g/120g), so the 9i-PW shaft from either one of that trio of weights could potentially be used as a lighter, less stiff substitute for the tour spec S+ 125g mentioned above in this article. Most notably, Phil Mickelson uses the KBS Tour V 125g S+ in all of his irons and all of his wedges, as this shaft was originally designed for him by KBS with his input before it was released to the general market.

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The 10 biggest PGA Tour players using KBS shafts in 2021

KBS is the leading shaft innovator in golf and the brand's shafts are used by some of the biggest names on the PGA Tour.

Leading golf shaft innovator KBS - the first single branded shaft company to offer a full set of options across the bag - delivered 25 global Tour victories during the 2020 season and golf's most sought-after shaft supplier are now in the bags of some of the biggest names in golf, including winners of all four of golf's major championships.

When World No.1 Dustin Johnson claimed his first Green Jacket at Augusta last November, the American had KBS Hi Rev 2.0 shafts in his wedges, as he dominated the field to win his second major title.

We've picked out the 10 biggest names on the PGA Tour who currently have a KBS shaft in their bag, so check them out in our list below.

DUSTIN JOHNSON

World Ranking:  #1

KBS Shaft Used: KBS   Hi Rev 2.0 (Wedges)

JUSTIN THOMAS

World Ranking:  #3

KBS Shaft Used:  KBS TOUR Graphite Hybrid 105s+

PHIL MICKELSON

World Ranking:  #86

KBS Shafts Used:  KBS TD 80 C5 TX (4-wood) & KBS Tour-V 125 S+ (Wedges)

World Ranking:  #22

KBS Shaft Used: KBS Tour (3-iron) & KBS Tour 130X (4-9)

GARY WOODLAND

World Ranking:  #41

KBS Shaft Used:  KBS Tour C-Taper 130X (Utility Iron), KBS Tour C-Taper 130X (4-PW) & KBS Hi-Rev 2.0 125X (Wedges)

VIKTOR HOVLAND

World Ranking:  #13

KBS Shaft Used:  KBS Tour 120 X (4-PW) & KBS Tour-V 130 X (Wedges)

SHANE LOWRY

World Ranking:  #38

KBS Shaft Used: KBS Tour 130X (4-PW)

JUSTIN ROSE

World Ranking:  #33

KBS Shaft Used:  KBS Hi Rev 2.0 135 (Wedges)

CAMERON SMITH

World Ranking:  #30

KBS Shaft Used:  KBS Tour 130 (Irons & Wedges)

MATT KUCHAR

World Ranking:  #43

KBS Shaft Used:  KBS Tour 120 S (Wedges)

For more information on the full KBS shaft line-up, vist their website .

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• WRX Club Techs

KBS tour 120 vs modus 120

By SCOTT4099 April 21, 2021 in WRX Club Techs

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Anyone compared these two shafts in stiff flex as far as which launches higher and spins more? I know results may vary but I am trying to get a general idea. I have tried the KBS but not the modus.

Any input would be helpful.

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• Last Reply Oct 13

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April 21, 2021

The KBS is much stiffer throughout most of the shaft, they only start to match up at the very tip.  So in theory the Nippon should launch higher.  Even the nippon x stiff is softer than the kbs over m

April 23, 2021

Not sure where you read that but it's not true.   KBS is a little stiffer than DG in the butt side but easily makes up for it with a stiffer tip.  And the the Modus 120 is way softer than the DG.   In

October 7, 2023

Reading this post and being somewhat familiar with what you like to play, you sound like a great fit for Modus 120. I’m playing it now and playing some great golf, and yet this is a shaft I have been

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I hit the Modus 120s and the KBS Tour 120s today, as a matter of fact. 

I'm trying to get away from the high launch, high spin that I'm getting from the KBS (which I don't like the feel of much, anyhow).

The Modus was pretty darn similar in terms of spin numbers. To my eye, it launched a little lower. I'm an inconsistent ball striker on my best days, so take that for what it's worth.

I felt like the Modus was a tiny bit stiffer in the tip, and a little more flexible in the butt.

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Callaway Apex Pro 2021 5-GW, Project X IO 110g 6.0

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4 hours ago, SCOTT4099 said: Anyone compared these two shafts in stiff flex as far as which launches higher and spins more? I know results may vary but I am trying to get a general idea. I have tried the KBS but not the modus.

The KBS is much stiffer throughout most of the shaft, they only start to match up at the very tip.  So in theory the Nippon should launch higher.  Even the nippon x stiff is softer than the kbs over most of the shaft.   But the theory is not always very reliable and besides, that's really not how you should pick a shaft.   it should be done by feel and the consistency of the results (dispersion), not the launch and spin.   If you need more launch and spin, just get the lofts bent weaker.

As @Stuart_G has stated the Nippons should launch higher in theory, but I found the opposite to be true.  I had the KBS Tour in both S and X in the past.  KBS Tour launches higher than the Nippon 120 line although not by much.  Spin is within the same ball park.  If I had to choose between the two I would go with the Nippons even though I'm a KBS fan boy. 

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Scotty Cameron Studio Select Newport 2

tough one there. Like the others have said you gotta hit them to really know for yourself

but in theory the Modus should launch higher and possibly be more spinny. For me personally I find that to be exactly true vs KBS Tour. I have a stronger load and aggressive tempo so makes sense why Modus 120 isn't a great fit for me

TM Qi10 9* ... KBS TD Serape 60x

TM BRNR Mini 13.5 ... KBS TD Rainbow 70x

TM Qi10 Tour 6w... KBS TD Rainbow 80x

TM Qi10 Tour 4h... KBS Proto Hybrid 105 S+

Mizuno Pro 243 5 - P ... KBS TGI 110

TM MG4 50 S, 56 LB, 60 TW... KBS $-Taper 130x

Greyson x Bettinardi SS3 and QB6

TaylorMade TP5x

What would be the most similar KBS shaft to modus 120 in terms of EI profile (ignoring weight)? 

17 minutes ago, sociojeje said: What would be the most similar KBS shaft to modus 120 in terms of EI profile (ignoring weight)? 

Well, the c-taper R+ is someone in the ball park of the nippon 120 X-stiff.   So maybe the R flex would be somewhat close to the 120 stiff.    I wouldn't call it a great match but it's about as close as you're likely to get (that I'm aware of).

Higher launch w/ the KBS shafts for me. KBS was a no for me because of bending at the tip.

I've played both of these and I'm not sure I could tell you any launch or flight differences between the two. 

WITB Currently Titleist TSR2 10*

Callaway Paradym 16.5*

Titleist TSi1 20*

Srixon ZX Utility 23* Irons - Srixon ZX7 5-PW

Cleveland RTX6 56*, 60* Piretti Cottonwood II Centershaft/Ping Tyne C

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I played KBS S when I was younger and moved to Modus 120 S as I've gotten older.  They are at least a 1/2 flex apart if not more so it isn't an apples to apples comparison.

I always thought KBS stiff felt too stiff to me.  In comparison modus 120 feel great and smooth.  But I'm smooth tempo, 7 iron 155-160 kinda guy.  

Taylormade M6, 9.0* head set -1.5*, Nippon Regio B+ shaft, 65 stiff at 45.5" Cobra FLY Z+ 3 wood, orange, aldila tour blue stiff, 14.5* Sub 70 939x, 3H(18*), Proforce V2 85 stiff Sub 70 939x, 4H(21*), Proforce V2 85 stiff Sub 70 699 Pros, 5-AW, Modus 120 stiff PING glide 2.0, 54*

Taylormade MG3, 58* HB  Scotty Select Newport, 73* lie, 1* loft, 34" (Testing Taylormade Bandon 1) Bridgestone Tour BX (Alternate ball VICE PRO)

Hate to do this but how about either compared to the DG S300? I thought I read somewhere that the s300 plays softer than both of these if I remember correctly.....

2 hours ago, SCOTT4099 said: Hate to do this but how about either compared to the DG S300? I thought I read somewhere that the s300 plays softer than both of these if I remember correctly.....

Not sure where you read that but it's not true.   KBS is a little stiffer than DG in the butt side but easily makes up for it with a stiffer tip.  And the the Modus 120 is way softer than the DG.   In fact, even the Modus 120 x-stiff is a noodle compared to the dg s300.

• 9 months later...

@Stuart_G  Awesome charts, sir. Thanks for all your great contributions here. Modus 120X and KBS Tour 120S are (to this point) my favorite shafts. Anything else you know of at close to ~120g that falls in between those or close to those in terms of profile? 

TM 300 Mini 11.5 AD-DI 7X

TM Sim2 Max 3HL AD-DI 7X

TM Sim2 Max 7-Wood AD-DI 8X

Ping i230 5-UW LAGP L-Series 120S

Ping Glide 3.0 52-12

Vokey SM8 58-10S

Vokey SM8 62-08M

Ping PLD Prime Tyne 4/TM Spider X Hydroblast

Sorry, not off the top of my head  (and that software is not being maintained any more).

• 3 weeks later...

On 4/21/2021 at 7:37 PM, Stuart_G said:   The KBS is much stiffer throughout most of the shaft, they only start to match up at the very tip.  So in theory the Nippon should launch higher.  Even the nippon x stiff is softer than the kbs over most of the shaft.   But the theory is not always very reliable and besides, that's really not how you should pick a shaft.   it should be done by feel and the consistency of the results (dispersion), not the launch and spin.   If you need more launch and spin, just get the lofts bent weaker.    

How does KBS $ Taper compare to Modus 120x and KBS Tour S on the chart?

Driver  - Titleist TS3 9.5* w/ Graphite Design Tour AD IZ-6x

3 wood   - Titleist TS2 15* w/ Graphite Design Tour AD DI-7x

5wood   - Titleist TS2 18* w/ Graphite Design Tour AD DI-8x

Irons   - Srixon ZX7 4, Srixon Z Forged 5- PW w/ Nippon NS Pro Modus 3 Tour 120X

Gap Wedge  - Cleveland RTX Zipcore 52* w/ Nippon NS Pro Modus Wedge 115

Sand Wedge   - Cleveland RTX Zipcore 58* w/ Nippon NS Pro Modus Wedge 115

Lob Wedge   - Cleveland RTX Zipcore Full Face 64* w/ Nippon NS Pro Modus Wedge 115

Putter   - Bettinardi DASS Diamond Face BB8 w/ Stability Tour Black

Ball   - Srixon Z Star

7 minutes ago, hypergolf said: How does KBS $ Taper compare to Modus 120x and KBS Tour S on the chart?

Sorry, I don't have the data for the $-taper.

" KBS Tour $-Taper provides superior feel while maintaining shot workability and tight dispersion for players seeking the ultimate tour shaft with Mid trajectory and Low Spin performance."

Just guessing - but that usually means a bit softer in the butt or mid section ("superior feel")  without softening the tip ("maintaining shot workability and tight dispersion").

On 4/21/2021 at 4:37 AM, Stuart_G said:   The KBS is much stiffer throughout most of the shaft, they only start to match up at the very tip.  So in theory the Nippon should launch higher.  Even the nippon x stiff is softer than the kbs over most of the shaft.   But the theory is not always very reliable and besides, that's really not how you should pick a shaft.   it should be done by feel and the consistency of the results (dispersion), not the launch and spin.   If you need more launch and spin, just get the lofts bent weaker.    

It seems to me that after looking at the bend profiles of many different shafts that when transitioning from S to X and especially into a TX that those shafts become different animals altogether, at least in the Nippon 120 and 130.  Like they are not the same profile anymore!

49 minutes ago, ode said: It seems to me that after looking at the bend profiles of many different shafts that when transitioning from S to X and especially into a TX that those shafts become different animals altogether, at least in the Nippon 120 and 130.  Like they are not the same profile anymore!

That's not what I see with the 120.

1 minute ago, Stuart_G said:   That's not what I see with the 120.    

Hmmm, interesting, tip stiffness goes down from X to TX 🤔

Thanks for posting!

From my personal experience I recently change from KBS 120 Tour V S to Modus 120 X and I get significantly more launch and spin with the modus. Much more active shaft and has actually worked out for me unlike most on the site who seem to be trying to lower launch and spin I actually needed more than what the KBS was giving me. With some recent swing changes more active shafts seem to work better for me which is the complete opposite from 5 years ago (previously used PX 6.0/X100). Not sure if any of this info helps the OP but figured I would share my experience. 

Cobra LTDX 9* Project X Hzrdus Smoke Blue RDX 60 6.0

Ping G400 17.5* Project X Hzrdus Yellow 75 6.0 

Taylormade SIM Max Hybrid 19* Fujikura Ventus Blue 7S 

Mizuno MP69 4-PW Project X LZ 6.0

Cleveland Zipcore 50* 54* 58* DG Tour Issue X100

Toulon San Diego

Pepperturbo

On 4/20/2021 at 10:02 PM, SCOTT4099 said: Anyone compared these two shafts in stiff flex as far as which launches higher and spins more? I know results may vary but I am trying to get a general idea. I have tried the KBS but not the modus.   Any input would be helpful.     thanks

I have no scientific support, just how each felt in my hands.  Standard KBS Tour S feels stiffer and I like it's bend profile more than Modus.  Sometime back I played KBS Tour S for a time being too.  Don't get me wrong Modus is a good shaft, popular with a lot of good players.  But I am more a hitter than swinger.  KBS $-Taper feels a bit firmer overall compared to Standard KBS Tour

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21 hours ago, Pepperturbo said: I have no scientific support, just how each felt in my hands.  Standard KBS Tour S feels stiffer and I like it's bend profile more than Modus.  Sometime back I played KBS Tour S for a time being too.  Don't get me wrong Modus is a good shaft, popular with a lot of good players.  But I am more a hitter than swinger.  KBS $-Taper feels a bit firmer overall compared to Standard KBS Tour

Currently a Modus 120x user but want to try out KBS Tour.

Should I go stiff or stiff plus with KBS since it has a stiffer profile? Same question for $ Taper.

I hit 7 iron 175 to 180 yards. Thanks

13 minutes ago, hypergolf said: Currently a Modus 120x user but want to try out KBS Tour.   Should I go stiff or stiff plus with KBS since it has a stiffer profile? Same question for $ Taper.   I hit 7 iron 175 to 180 yards. Thanks

What are you looking to change? 

23 minutes ago, hypergolf said: Should I go stiff or stiff plus with KBS since it has a stiffer profile? Same question for $ Taper.

Weight is generally more important than stiffness for most - and w/ KBS when you change flex you change weight.  The S+'s are 5 gm heavier than the S's.

12 minutes ago, ktyler2 said: What are you looking to change? 

Not looking for change but the iron set I am looking for only comes with KBS options.

2 minutes ago, Stuart_G said:   Weight is generally more important than stiffness for most - and w/ KBS when you change flex you change weight.  The S+'s are 5 gm heavier than the S's.  

120g is perfect for me so I guess S would do then. Thanks.

3 hours ago, hypergolf said: Currently a Modus 120x user but want to try out KBS Tour.   Should I go stiff or stiff plus with KBS since it has a stiffer profile? Same question for $ Taper.   I hit 7 iron 175 to 180 yards. Thanks

If you're properly fit into X flex, KBS Tour S+ should give you some pop.  It's harder to make a suggestion with $ Taper.  My experience with that shaft was not as long as KBS Tour.

So thought I report back. Just got back from a golf store and I demoed the following.

KBS Tour stiff, KBS $ Taper stiff, Project X 6.0 and Project X LZ 6.0.

They were obviously all very different in terms of feel. My 7 iron swing speed on the launch monitor averaged 93mph and I felt stiff flex was plenty enough.

First none of the shafts felt anything like Modus 120x. Most of the above shafts have more of a one piece feel maybe except for Project X LZ 6.0 which had some kick to it.

In saying that, following were my choice in order of preference.

1. KBS Tour stiff - Felt stable enough for my swing and gave a nice mid launch (18 to 20 feet from what I remember) and I can definitely see myself gaming these. Not butt soft like Modus 120x but I felt it gave great distance (increased by 5 yards on average) and had a slightly lower trajectory compared to Modus 120. But this was on the screen and not out on the course so this is the best I could report back. Even though a stiff flex it felt firmer than Modus 120x.

2. KBS $ Taper - Felt slightly firmer than KBS Tour but very similar in most launch characteristics and numbers. Distance wise slight on the shorter side compared to the above.

3. Project X LZ 6.0 - Good mid flight as well but I didn’t really like the feel of it. I have read many mention that this is a good transition shaft from Modus 120 but I personally disagree. Not as smooth feeling and feels a bit dead. Mis hits were less forgiving than the KBS line above. More on the stiffer side of the spectrum for a stiff flex shaft.

4. Project X 6.0 - Didn’t get along too well with this shaft. Replaced it to another shaft immediately after 3 hits so can’t really report back much. Feels the firmest with not much kick. Very dead feel to me personally.

So in conclusion, I would go KBS Tour S or Modus 120x for all my future purchases personally. 

2 minutes ago, hypergolf said: So in conclusion, I would go KBS Tour S or Modus 120x for all my future purchases personally. 

You and I are very similar in speed and feels. I would put those clubs in the same order. What do you play in your woods/hybrids and do you love them?

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The clubs Jason Day and Lydia Ko used to win the first Grant Thornton Invitational

Witb jason day, witb lydia ko.

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• Regent Seven Seas Cruises

Best of Moscow by high speed train

By shuguley , February 15, 2014 in Regent Seven Seas Cruises

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Sure would appreciate someone who has taken "Best of Moscow by high speed train" from St. Petersburg could please share their impressions of this shore excursion. From the description this sounds like a very long day.

Wondering how the 4 hour train trip was in terms of accommodations, etc. Also what time did you leave the ship and what time at night did you return? Were both legs of the trip on the high speed rail (I read that slower trains also travel the same tracks)?

My wife and I are considering this excursion. We thought that if we are making all the effort to go to Russia then how could we pass up going to Moscow, walking in Red Square, seeing St. Basil, etc.

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If you are considering this on the 2015 June Baltic cruise on Voyager; my suggestion is don't. There is so much to do in St. Petersburg and although a train is one of my favorite ways to travel the time would be far better spent in St. P.

Thanks for the advice. Yes, this would be on the Voyager during the 2015 season but not yet sure exactly which cruise.

We did the Moscow excursion "on a different luxury line", but from your brief description it sounds very much like the same trip, so I will operate on that assumption. It is a VERY long day! We left the ship at 5:30 AM and returned at 12:30 AM. The highspeed train trip is comfortable, and while they call it "Business Class" it does not compare well to the equivalent class on say Rail Europe. When we did it in 2011, we did have highspeed both ways, and the trip back seemed much longer as the adrenaline and excitement had worn off!:D

Moscow itself is not that terribly different from any other big city in the world, but this Cold War kid never thought he would ever stand in Red Square, never mind walk the grounds of The Kremlin, or tour The Kremlin Palace, or see (but not visit) Lenin's Tomb, or visit The Armoury. But he did, and he loved every minute of it! Yes, it is a long day, and you barely scratch a scratch on the surface, but it is worth it. There is a tremendous amount to see in St. Petersburg, but every Baltic cruise goes to St. Petersburg, so you can go back if you choose to. Not every cruiseline offers you the chance to see Moscow.

I have not personally done this tour, but our last time in St Petersburg, the private guide that we hired for a day was leading the regent tour to Moscow on the high speed train the next day. He said it was way better than the previous alternative, which was flying to Moscow and back. He said that you actually got to Moscow faster because you didn't have to deal with airline checkin etc. it did seem like a very long day to me, and there is so much to see and do in st. Petersburg that I didn't consider doing it.

countflorida

We toured to Moscow from St. Petersburg via the hi-speed SAPSAN train last September, from a Baltic cruise on the Oceania Marina. You need to have a two-night, three day port call in St. Petersburg to take this tour because the tour typically leaves the ship around 5:00 - 5:30 AM and doesn't return until after midnight the next day. We didn't take the ship's tour; we made private arrangements with TravelAllRussia for three days of touring, the first and third days in St. Petersburg and the second day the tour to Moscow by train. Our cost for the private tour for three days was about the same as what the ship charged for the excursion to Moscow alone. There are a number of private tour agencies that operate in St. Petersburg and offer the Moscow train tours; we would strongly recommend them over the ship's tours.

All three days had private guides with car and driver. The second day, the driver picked us up at the ship and took us to the train, but we were alone on the train, and met in Moscow by the guide on the station platform. After our tour and dinner, we were brought back to the train and after the return train trip met by the driver and taken back to the ship. Because you are alone on the train you must have your own Russian visas.

If this is your first visit to St. Petersburg, I would agree there is much more to see there. We found Moscow somewhat a disappointment, particularly Red Square. The Kremlin and the cathedral in Red Square were also worth seeing. But the best thing we saw was the Moscow subway! I worked for the Washington Metro system back in the 1980s as it grew from 40 to 80 miles and although I was in the computer area, I learned a lot about the challenges of running a subway system. We used the Moscow system to get across the city from where we had dinner to the train station, and I was amazed at the cleanliness', speed of operation, the short headways maintained, and the courtesy of everyone involved. A very impressive experience!

We had been to St. Petersburg before, and so had the time to take a day and go to Moscow. Also, I really like trains, and the SAPSAN is a German train set running on Russian rails. Seats are like first class domestic air, spacious but not too plush or comfortable, but with enough room. Not too much recline, and almost 8 hours on the train in two shots is a lot for an old man. They come through and sell drinks, candy, etc. but the sellers don't speak English and no one around us helped, so we had just poor coffee once coming, and brought stuff with us for the trip back. Not too much to see from the train either, particularly on the return when it is night the whole way.

If you decide to go, take a private tour and avoid the overly expensive ship's tour. I'm glad we did it, but wouldn't bother to repeat the tour; we've seen Moscow.

Thanks so much to all of you for the thorough and thought insight. Yhe information you have provided is most helpful.

countflorida: Your detailed post is very helpful. We are not quite ready for a Baltic cruise but should do so within a year. Time enough to do our pre travel research, bookings and visa gathering.:) Thank you!

Emperor Norton

Sure would appreciate someone who has taken "Best of Moscow by high speed train" from St. Petersburg could please share their impressions of this shore excursion. From the description this sounds like a very long day.   Wondering how the 4 hour train trip was in terms of accommodations, etc. Also what time did you leave the ship and what time at night did you return? Were both legs of the trip on the high speed rail (I read that slower trains also travel the same tracks)?   My wife and I are considering this excursion. We thought that if we are making all the effort to go to Russia then how could we pass up going to Moscow, walking in Red Square, seeing St. Basil, etc.

I did this on Seabourn. IMO DONT. Take Aeroflop (er Aeroflot). The train has non folding seats where you are literally knee to knee with your fellow passenger (facing each other). Further they don't believe in air conditioning. It's also the worlds slowed bullet train. I think I would have found more enjoyment wandering around the St. Petersburg and Moscow airports.

Countflorida,

This is a little off topic,, however we had planned a river cruise in Russia but decided we would rather stay on land and have booked about two weeks with Travel-All-Russia using the private guide and driver. I'm curious as to how you found them as a tour company.

The guides they provided were fine. We had a different guide each of the days in St. Petersburg, but both were flexible, pleasant, knowledgeable and spoke English very well, as did the guide in Moscow, incidentally. She was a bit aloof, distant, not too friendly, but otherwise fine. In fact, she was the one who suggested taking the Metro, which unexpectedly became one of the highlights of the Moscow excursion. If I have a complaint with AllTravelRussia, it is with their plan and its execution (more later).

I had requested emphasis on World War II (in Russia, the Great Patriotic War) sites and info. In scheduling us, they weren't careful about dates and a couple of the sites we wanted to see were scheduled on the third day, after we'd been to Moscow. But both sites were closed that day of the week, and that info was readily available, right on web sites describing them. Also, the included meals (lunches in St. Pete, dinner in Moscow) were not what we asked for: light meals with some choices, so we could avoid things we didn't like and choose things we did like. My request was ignored; we were given full Russian meals with a fixed menu, no choice. On the first day, a fish dish was the entre, but I am allergic to fish. Fortunately, I had the e-mail I'd sent with me and showed it to the guide, and she was able to change my entre to chicken, which was very good actually. But we didn't want a 3-4 course lunches or dinner (in Moscow). We had the guide drop the lunch the third day, although we never got any credit or refund. But, particularly in contrast to the ship's tours, the prices were so reasonable we didn't worry too much about it.

The people who were on the ship's tour to Moscow saw us boarding the same train for which they were forced to queue up and wait on the way back, and asked us what we had done. I was candid and open so they were not happy when I explained what we had arranged and particularly what it had cost. Also, when we returned to the ship, we found they had laid on a late supper for those who had gone to Moscow, so up we went and had something. Well, it turns out the late supper was supposed to be just for those on the ship's tour, but we and others on 'independent' tours, there were a dozen or more of us, crashed the party, actually got there first, and they didn't realize it until the larger group arrived and there weren't enough tables/places set. By that time, the 'independents' had all gotten served and were eating; what could they do?

A couple from the larger group sat down with us and asked us about our tour, and they were the ones I told about our arrangement and its cost. They turned to others who’d been with them and announced the details, loudly enough so the whole room heard, which started a lot of bitching and complaining. I gathered they weren't very happy with the ship's tour to begin with, and this was the straw that broke the camel's back. We finished up and beat it out of there, but overheard later that one of the excursion staff came to check on something and ran into a real mess. I caught a cold on the trip, which forced me to bed the second day following in Tallinn, so by the time we reappeared we heard about the contretemps' but apparently no one recalled who started it, thankfully.

Because of what happened to us, I would probably not use AllTravelRussia if I were to go again, or if I did, I would be sure to get confirmation of every detail of the tour. They do have good reviews generally, and we were certainly helped by their visa department and liked the guides and drivers. Their weakness, I say now with full 20:20 hindsight, is that once the sales person who plans the tour, sells it to you and collects your money, he (or she) transfers the plan to their Russia office for implementation; there is no follow-up to make sure it gets done right. And that is where our problems arose; we paid for a custom tour but got a standard package with a few destinations switched, and no one checked them out, even to see when they were open the day we were scheduled to go. If you check every detail that’s important to you, it should be OK, but that’s a hell of a way to have to do business, in my opinion.

Thank you for the 20/20 hindsight observation on your Russian tour operator, and better priced than the ship's excursion cost.

Thanks very much for the feedback.

We had the same experience as you so far as price. We originally booked a Viking Cruise but, hearing some things about the river cruises that made us unhappy, looked into other options. T-A-R cost the same or less than a cruise and had us in hotels for 11 days. We opted for the private tour. They have three tour levels, based on hotels. We originally opted for the four star as it did not cost much more than the three star hotels. Finally we decided to throw it all in and upgraded to five star. In Moscow we will be at the newly opened Kempinsky which is two blocks from Red Square. In St. Petersburg it is the Grand Hotel Europe, one of the most vaunted luxury hotels in Russia. Location is important for us as the tours use up only part of the day so being in the center of everything for our independent touring is important. As with many other cities, the less you pay, the farther out of the center of town you are.

We have been working with our salesman in D.C. and he seems to get back to us with the changes we want. He recently returned from Russia so is up on everything. When I asked they said they paid the full TA commission if I wanted so I got my usual TA on board so he is watching our back and giving us that extra level of comfort. He also set up our air, which I know pays him little or nothing, and got us business class for much less than T-A-R wanted for economy, though it took working for a while with a consolidator. He's happy to get his 10 percent on this trip without having booked it. He also took care of the trip insurance. We've been doing a lot of research on the CC sister site Trip Advisor and will write a report there. We will, I guess, become a source of info for CC members after having spent 5 days in Moscow and 6 in SP.

• 4 months later...

scubacruiserx2

Anybody considering a day trip to Moscow from St. Petersburg on the Sapsan may want to look at our travelogue filled with pictures.

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=1927687

Very informative. Thanks dor sharing. Jeff

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