arai tour x4 cardo packtalk

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• Tested: Sena 50S Bluetooth motorcycle intercom review

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Consumer Editor of Bennetts BikeSocial, John's owned over 20 bikes, has been testing motorcycle kit for more than 25 years and is a member of the International Association of Auto Theft Investigators, and part of the Motorcycle Crime Reduction Group.

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Date reviewed: November 2020 | Tested by: John Milbank | Price: £309| www.sena.com

The Sena 50S is the company’s flagship motorcycle intercom. Having used it for several months on an Arai Tour-X4, riding a BMW S1000XR and a Royal Enfield Interceptor 650, I’ve been able to review its performance when making calls, listening to music, and as an intercom over Bluetooth, and using the Mesh 2.0 connection with multiple riders.

Sena also offers the 50R, which is a very similar device (with the same RRP), but three buttons instead of the three plus a jog dial and ambient button of the 50S, and a slightly lower capacity battery (a claimed drop of one hour talk time); the 50R is described as being the more rugged of the two devices, and was promoted through sponsorship of the 2020 BMW Motorrad GS Trophy, where 100 riders all used it in tough conditions.

The 50R attaches directly to the side of the helmet without the additional mounting bracket of the 50S, so loses the headphone and auxiliary port, offering an optional earbud splitter cable for those that need it, but no aux input.

This review focusses on the Sena 50S, though most of the functions are the same if you’re considering the R…

UPDATE: For the latest Cardo and Sena intercom updates, including new  cross-platform compatibility, GoPro control and voice recording features, check our updates feature here .

For and against

• Outstanding range
• Wireless, automatic firmware updating
• Simple and effective open Mesh for easy group comms
• Battery life not as good as some competitors
• Compatibility with other brands not the best
• Water resistance (50S) is poor

Fitting the Sena isn’t quite as simple as some of its competitors thanks to a clamp that uses two small Allen-head set-screws. A key is included, and once on it’s a very secure mount, so it’s worth the extra five minutes of fiddling.

An adhesive mount is also supplied, though you’ll need to swap some parts over from the clamp to use it.

My criticism of the mount is that it’s a little bulky, but off-setting that is the fact that there are no connectors to find space for in the lid, and it includes a button to enable ‘ambient’ mode, a 2.5mm auxiliary input for MP3 players or anything else (a long, coiled cable is supplied with a 3.5mm plug for your devices), and a 3.5mm headphone socket to use your own earbuds. Note that plugging into this disables the unit’s speakers.

I’m using the wired microphone, which sticks inside the front of a full-face helmet’s chin piece; it’s very slim – getting on for half that of the leading competitor – fixing in place with some Velcro so it’s easy to position for good clarity but without feeling uncomfortable or getting in your mouth.

For flip-front or open-face helmets, two boom mics are supplied – one that sprouts out of the mount and another that fixes inside the helmet. Swapping the mics around is a little fiddly, and you’ll need to download the full instruction manual if you can’t work out how to do it.

Once on, the mount can rub on bulky shoulder armour at times, though it’s never actually in the way. The scroll wheel is quite large, and while it’s rare, it is possible to move it during a shoulder check if you have your head tilted. But all this does is crank the volume up a touch.

You have the choice of clamping the mount on, or sticking it

Connections

The Mesh 2.0 intercom is extremely easy to use thanks to it defaulting to ‘Open’ mode. The 50S turns on in Bluetooth by default, but pressing the button on the top switches it to Mesh. Cleverly, the button is tucked behind the pop-up antenna, meaning you’re less likely to forget to lift this, which does make a difference to the signal strength.

Open mode is described as being capable of handling a ‘virtually limitless’ number of riders, and while it does mean that anyone with the same device could listen in and participate with your conversations, it’s not really likely to cause any headaches. In fact, imagine a world where someone riding in the other direction can wave and say hi; pretty neat.

In practice, the open Mesh setting will suit almost everyone, and if you are getting any interference, you can switch from the default channel 1 to any of the eight others. You can also set up a private group of up to 24 riders if you prefer, which will always stay paired and be accessible by holding the Mesh button for three seconds.

Mesh is a huge improvement over Bluetooth comms as when riding in groups with the old tech, if any rider loses connection the group falls apart, which means they have to stop to pair up again.

Mesh makes things a lot simpler as you can set it up once then forget about it, and unlike Bluetooth, it doesn’t matter if the riders change their order on the road, or if one leaves the pack.

You can use the Sena 50S as a Bluetooth intercom, though in this mode you’re limited to a maximum of four riders.

A 50S user in Mesh can include a Bluetooth user in a Mesh conversation – I tested this using a pair of 50Ss in Mesh mode, with a Sena 10C in Bluetooth and all three were able to join in the conversation

If you ride in a group of more than two and want to be able to communicate, it really is worth buying a Mesh system, but do bear in mind that it’s not universally compatible – you’re all going to have to buy the same brand.

The mounting bracket includes headphone and auxiliary ports

Mesh intercoms typically don’t work across different brands, but it’s just been announced that the new Mesh devices from Sena and Interphone will be compatible.

Sena also has a universal Bluetooth intercom pairing mode, but I’ve struggled with it – pairing it to a Cardo meant setting the competitor’s device as a phone. To pair a Sena 50S to a Cardo Packtalk you need to carry out the following steps, though it will be a similar procedure for other Sena and Cardo devices:

• Put the Cardo in phone pairing mode by pressing and holding the phone button for five seconds, until the LED flashes red. If you want to use the ‘second mobile phone option’ tap the phone button twice when the LED is flashing red.
• Access ‘universal pairing mode’ on the Sena by holding the jog dial down until you get to the configuration menu, then turn the dial anti-clockwise twice until you hear ‘universal pairing’. Finally, press the phone button on the rear of the Sena to activate pairing and the two should link up.

It seems to be the same process when connecting the Sena to an old Interphone F5MC, but interestingly, the Cardo paired without issue to the same device.

On the other hand, there are a lot of people out there with Sena intercoms, not least because the company also makes the units for Shoei and Schuberth lids, so there’s a good chance it might be the brand your mates have , and the upcoming compatibility with new Interphone devices should not be underestimated.

The auxiliary connection might appeal to some users, but I expect any headset to connect all my devices via Bluetooth, so smooth connections here are really important to me, and with the GPS connected through GPS pairing mode, instructions are fed direct to the intercom.

With my Samsung Galaxy S10 paired to the Sena, I’m able to listen to music or the FM radio, and the TomTom interrupts to give directions, the entire message usually being clearly spoken.

While the two Bluetooth intercoms paired automatically, I did have an issue with the TomTom – once that had made an announcement, the second intercom (the one not paired to my other devices) couldn’t initiate a conversation, even when the TomTom wasn’t speaking any more. The ‘main’ unit (paired to the sat-nav) was still able to link the two up, so if you don’t disconnect (remember that you’ll only hear the other person when they speak), you won’t be aware of this glitch.

I did have some issues with the TomTom during my test of the Cardo Packtalk Bold as well, but found that was sorted by pairing the GPS as a ‘second mobile phone’; trying that on the Sena didn’t work, so for some reason the two just don’t play nicely.

The speakers fit fine in my Arai TourX-4

Trying to cover every eventuality, I also found that, with two 50Ss connected via Bluetooth, music played fine though my headset (and could be shared with the other user), the intercom speech overlaying if you want or interrupting it altogether. The TomTom had no problems cutting into the conversation, but after the message was complete, if music was playing it suddenly went incredibly loud, overdriving the speakers significantly. This is in some way related to having a 50S connected as a Bluetooth intercom, as it didn’t happen with a Sena 10C connected, or when the 50Ss were connected by Mesh. Turning off ‘Audio Multitasking Volume Management’ in the app stops it happening, but if you do experience this, turning the music off then on again will reset it to the normal volume.

With two Senas connected via Mesh the TomTom seemed to work fine, but I did notice that if either user presses the scroll wheel in, the Mesh connection is disabled as the unit connects via Bluetooth. Press the Mesh button and it reconnects, then disconnects itself, so you need to press the scroll wheel again to turn the Bluetooth connection off.

While Google Maps and Calimoto on the phone will interrupt music that’s being streamed from the same device, the intercom will overpower it – so if someone speaks as the directions come through, you won’t hear them. Also, when the radio is on, the phone’s directions don’t interrupt it, so you can’t hear them (I also tried pairing the phone as a GPS but it wouldn’t work). An audio priorities option like that found on the Cardo could help here.

Note that when using Mesh between two people (for instance as a rider and pillion) you can press the button to leave the conversation, but unlike with Bluetooth, the other person won’t be able to initiate a conversation again until you reconnect. Reconnecting also gives the voice instructions “Mesh intercom on, open Mesh, channel one”, so this is a full disconnect, rather than simply muting the conversation.

Ultimately, the connections on the Sena 50S are generally fine, but I did dig out some glitches and the odd slightly confusing function.

The Sena’s large jog wheel makes it easy to change volume (though unintuitively, you turn it backwards (clockwise) to increase the level. It’s not hugely tactile though – a click to the steps would make it easier to feel it moving with gloves on. The buttons are fairly easy to find, but all of these controls become fairly irrelevant thanks to voice recognition, where the number of commands accessible is impressive…

Voice control is very useful, but unfortunately I don’t have total success with the Sena system. My colleagues have often referred to me as a lispy, conical-headed t**t, so it’s perhaps no surprise that some of my instructions can trip it up, but I do have significantly better results with the Cardo Packtalk .

I have a suspicion that, in trying to add so many commands (more than offered by Cardo’s kit), the Sena is looking for too much detail in the speech, which can get lost in a noisy environment from a fat-tongued Fenlander like me.

I have the most trouble with ‘Hey Sena, stop music’, with perhaps a 30% success rate. If I very clearly enunciate the plosive in ‘stop’, it seems to work a bit better, but the device also doesn’t seem to like one command directly following another, so you need to pause a few seconds, then try again, which can be frustrating when you need to shut the music off to speak to someone.

Of course, you can hold the jog wheel for a second or so to turn off the tunes, and others may have more success; YouTube’s auto-subtitles are a joke on my videos, whereas clear-speaking Michael Mann’s are a lot better.

Ultimately though, this could do with some fine-tuning via firmware, though it’s not helped by the fact that some commands seem a little overly-complex; “Hey Sena, FM radio on” could surely have been “Hey Sena, FM on”, which would also be more logical when it’s what the voice says back to you.

The app is a handy way to control the Sena 50S from your handlebars, as long as you have it mounted vertically

Another way to control the Sena 50S is via the dedicated app, which allows you to access all ten of the FM radio presets, three phone speed dials, intercom settings and music controls. This works well as long as you have good touch-screen compatible bike gloves, and you can also adjust all of the device’s settings via the app.

It’s a neat touch to also find the quick-start guide and full user manuals accessible from the app if you ever get stuck, though I do wish the app would rotate so you could use it in landscape mode.

Finally, you can use ‘OK Google’ or ‘Hey Siri’ to access your phone’s personal assistant, but as with the Cardo this doesn’t work at speed due to the phone not having the noise-cancelling capabilities of the headset.

Volume and clarity

The overall volume of the Sena is very good, with decent clarity from the new ‘HD’ speakers. These 40mm drivers give decent enough base and sparkle, but they do start to distort a small amount at full volume.

Comparing them in a controlled test environment with the Cardo Packtalk Black, which comes with premium (priced) 45mm speakers, the Sena 50S doesn’t have the same high quality, lacking a little in the deep tones. Turn on the Sena’s bass boost and it improves, but it’s not quite there.

However, on the road in a 70mph wind with ear plugs in there’s a lot less difference. The Cardo’s 45mm speakers do offer more than bragging rights, and don’t distort, but you’ll be hard pressed to tell unless you’re running them back-to-back.

Ambient mode is activated with the button on the bottom of the mount

The Sena offers an ‘ambient’ mode thanks to the helmet mount – tap the button twice and it acts almost like a hearing aid, supposedly amplifying the sounds around you. This should be useful in petrol stations or when asking directions, but it simply doesn’t work, merely amplifying the sound of your fingers brushing on the intercom casing. If you’ve got earplugs in, people will just need to speak a louder.

The wired microphone is very slim

Sena 50S range

Compared to its main rival, the range of the Sena 50S is excellent. Sena claims 2km (1.2 miles) in open terrain, and my standard test is on a straight, flat road with no traffic. My wife stands in one location, facing down the road, while I ride away, monitoring the connection as she speaks constantly.

This is the best I’ve seen, and while there will always be some variables, this test was carried out within minutes of the Cardo, so atmospherics didn’t play in Sena’s favour. In fact, the road runs out at 1,330m, and as I turned the bike around, I was reconnected to Helen, even at this range.

The ranges achieved on my straight test road were absolutely outstanding

Mesh allows for greater total range in a group as the signal effectively bounces off of each unit. Sena claims up to 8km (5 miles), but it takes a minimum of six riders to achieve that, and while they’ll all be able to talk to eachother, regardless of their position in the pack, there will be a maximum range between each in order to keep everyone connected.

While I was unable to test with a group of that size, I had one ‘rider’ stand in a set location with a unit attached to ear defenders, then rode off until the limit of the connection. There, the second ‘rider’ stood and turned their unit on. I then rode off as ‘rider 3’ to check that we were all able to continue talking.

The test was carried out on the edge of a quiet village, with no traffic between the units.

Here you can see where the ‘riders’ were for the Mesh test. Rider 1 is effectively the tail rider of this test, rider 2 marks the limit of that connection, then rider 3 shows how the Mesh system increases range while keeping everyone in conversation

The distance from rider 1 to rider 2 wasn’t as good as the clear road test, but this is a real-world scenario and it’s important to remember that this acts as a comparison to other Mesh-enabled devices that we test (like the Cardo Packtalk Bold / Black ). The road opened up out of the village shortly after where rider 2 stood, so the range from them to rider 3 was greater, making for a total distance of 960m between riders 1 and 3. As rider 3 lost connection, riders 1 and 2 were still able to continue talking.

Once the maximum distance was recorded, I, as rider 3, then turned around and rode back past each of the other testers to ensure the Mesh would stay connected as the order changed around. Both testers turned 180° as I rode past, so we were always facing the same direction.

This is the second part of the Mesh test – riders 1 and 2 stayed where they were, but rider 3 (me) turned around and rode past them until the connection was again lost. Everyone faced the same direction, and here rider 2 was able to talk to rider 1 still, and until the limit of the connection, rider 3 was part of the conversation.

Going in the opposite direction, the road takes a turn past a tree and it’s into the village, creating more opportunity for the signal to be blocked. No traffic was between the devices during measurement.

The beauty of mesh is that it automatically reconnects, and it will bounce off the riders no matter what order they’re in. So in practice, a group of riders should be able to maintain good, clear communication for the majority of their trip, and the Sena is certainly offering the best range of anything I’ve used to date.

Intercom radios generally leave a bit to be desired, and I’ve yet to find one that gives anything like the stability of what you’ll find in your car. But the Sena 50S isn’t bad, holding a connection to Radio 4 over a 25 mile ride, though there was some interference and breaking up at times.

There are 10 station preset slots that you can access by saying ‘Hey Sena, next’ or ‘previous’, by pressing the jog dial then rotating it, or through the app.

RDS is included, which allows the radio to auto-retune, though sadly – like others – it doesn’t say the name of the radio station, only the frequency.

The charging port is USB-C

Sena 50S battery life

My test of any intercom’s battery life is carried out by playing music streamed from my phone at full volume until it stops – this gives a consistent and repeatable comparison between devices.

The Sena is okay, but not the best, coming in at 9 hours and 40 minutes. Sena claims 14 hours of talk-time through Bluetooth and 9 hours using Mesh, so while a group chat will reduce the time you can waffle on, it should be enough for most rides. It’s possible that Sena’s exceptional range is having an impact on battery life, so you’ll need to decide what’s most important to you.

The 50S takes only an hour to charge, and just 20 minutes will give you a claimed 6 hours of talk-time in Bluetooth and 3.5 hours in Mesh, so topping up at lunch should mean you have no difficulties at all.

It’s great to find a USB-C charging port on the 50S, which should mean carrying fewer cables, and it’s worth noting that the Sena can be used while it’s being charged.

Sena 50S waterproofing

In what’s been a design oversight for several generations of devices, the Sena 50S has no Ingress Protection (IP) rating. It’s claimed ‘water resistant’, and in showers it tends to be fine, but in heavy rain at speed, water can stop it working. I have had it shut itself down once, though it booted straight back up without issue.

It’s difficult to see where the water gets in to cause a problem, but I suspect it’s the connections between the bracket and the unit, which uses a thin rubbery seal. If Sena is serious about the European (and particularly UK) markets, it needs to have a think about the design of its products.

While I haven’t used the Sena 50R, the lack of mounting bracket and simpler design (plus Sena’s claims of it being the ‘rugged’ option) make me think this would be better in the rain. Though there’s still no IP rating…

The supplied charging cable can be used for automatic updating, but you can charge with a normal USB-C cable

Ease of updating

Updating the Sena is much simpler than its competitors, which need plugging into a computer – the supplied charging cable (Duo-packs do get two charge cables) has a WiFi dongle built in; once you’ve set this up via your smartphone, it will automatically connect to your WiFi network and update your device whenever necessary, once it’s plugged in.

It’s important that the cable is plugged into a USB charger (one isn’t supplied) and given a few seconds to connect to your network before you plug the intercom in as the update check is run immediately. Other than that, it couldn’t be simpler, and as I’ve had three updates go through in two months of testing, the simplicity and guarantee that it’ll always have the latest firmware is appreciated.

Sena 50S intercom review: Verdict

The 50S has a lot of great features, and the range is absolutely outstanding – it’s much better than its main competitor. I’m also really impressed with the simple updating, and while it might not have the very best definition when it comes to music, at 70mph it’s a lot harder to tell any huge difference.

But the vulnerability to water ingress is a real issue for UK buyers, and after all these years there seems little excuse. The not-quite-perfect voice control and the grumbles with the connections add to the disappointments with the Sena. Fortunately, the Sena 50R is basically the same inside, but it IS waterproof. You can read our review of the Sena 50R here .

What your mates own will make a big difference to your buying choice, and the fact that Sena and Interphone have joined forces to offer new devices with compatible Mesh technology from 2021 is a very big deal.

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Best Intercom for Arai Helemts - Cardo or Sena?

• Thread starter V2 TRV
• Start date Nov 27, 2019

Registered user

• Nov 27, 2019

I am looking for the best intercom to use with an Arai helmet. I had initially looked at Sena integrated on Shoei GR Air but the glasses channel on the Shoei makes it a non starter so back to Arai it is. As far as I can see there aren’t neat solutions as per above for the Arai so iI’m considering a Cardo 4+ or a Sena 10V2. Both appear quite bulky compared to the above but it looks like that’s as good as it’s gonna get. Has anyone any experience of the above 2 systems? Cheers for any tips.  

Main question Trev: Are you using it, or see yourself using it for bike-bike comms on holidays etc? If not - there are perhaps no overriding reasons to differentiate. You can buy a good S/H Cardo G4/G9 for £60 upwards, that will BT connect to other equipment/phone - the module sticks/clamps to the LHS of the helmet at the lower edge, but in practice isn't much of an inconvenience and I have never had any problem with aerodynamics.  

RedRick Esq.

Telling engineer to f**k off since 2023.

I have the sena 20S on my arai it works well My pal has the integrated sena on his shoei it does not work so well in as much as it is more limited to the number of other units it can link to the range is not as good and nor is battery life I know it is on a Shoei but it is the same system just a different shape for different helmet  

Hi Al Main usage is for FM on my commute as well as phone calls. I would do a couple of trips a year with my brother so that's as far as usage goes. Trev  

V2 TRV said: Hi Al Main usage is for FM on my commute as well as phone calls. I would do a couple of trips a year with my brother so that's as far as usage goes. Trev Click to expand...

Well-known member

• Nov 28, 2019

I have the Cards Scala Packtalk on my Arai Tour X4 and am very happy with it. I also have a Schubert C3Pro with the integrated system (relegated to commuting as its getting on a bit). I was worried about having the Packtalk fitted on the outside (after a fully integrated system) but I can safely say after about a year of use you don't feel it there. I agree they can look a bit 'obvious' but, in my opinion, cause not ill effects what so ever. I love the Packtalk. the quality and volume is brilliant (on all bluetooth devices you need to spend time moving the speakers around to get the best results) and it is waterproof unlike a lot of the competition.  

Trev, I’m now using the Scala Freecom in my Arai lids. I got the single kit, then bought their audio kit to fit to my other Arai so I can swop the main unit between helmets. The FM is pretty decent and the actual unit on the side of the helmet is quite slimline and much less bulky than others I looked at. So far, I’m very pleased with my choice.  

Both are shit. Get an Interphone.  

Davy F said: Trev, I’m now using the Scala Freecom in my Arai lids. I got the single kit, then bought their audio kit to fit to my other Arai so I can swop the main unit between helmets. The FM is pretty decent and the actual unit on the side of the helmet is quite slimline and much less bulky than others I looked at. So far, I’m very pleased with my choice. Click to expand...

The Nutty KTMer said: Both are shit. Get an Interphone. Click to expand...

Look at the 10U Slimline, good volume, loads of connections, etc.  

I’ve had two Interphones....both disappointing with connectivity and battery life being poor. They’d run out of puff before a long day in the saddle would be complete. I then had the Uclear which was a great item, long battery life, never dropped out but poor water resistance and both got drowned (the first one was replaced under warranty after water ingress, the second died this year, again death by water). The Scala seems totally waterproof and so far so good.  

Active member

• Jan 26, 2020

I'm certain others will have a different view but this was my experience with Packtalk Slim and Tour X4. This is my first communication unit ever. So I have no reference to compare too however, I did a fair bit of research, reading reviews and watching youtube videos of which there are many that promote it as a top rated item….and some that suggest it isn’t quite that. It certainly wasn’t the cheapest at £412 for a duel set but I decided to come off the fence and picked PT Slim. Apart from the reviews I settled on this unit because it was unobtrusive on the outside of the helmet, voice controlled (in part), waterproof, simple to use and connected to your phone via the Cardo app. The unit was fairly easy to fit to my Arai Tour X4 and after I’d set mine up with a firmware update I sat in the living with my hat on and using the ‘app’ phoned my wife in the kitchen…the sound was excellent. Not that I bought it to do so I played a few tunes and the voice controls all seemed to work at advertised too. So far so good. The next day I went for a ride and used the telephone and music function again. At slow speeds (30-40mph) it was no problem to hear/communicate but at 60 -70mph it was a struggle to hear anything. Perhaps I could move the JBL speakers around and it would be better. I tried and it wasn’t. Perhaps I could adjust the audio settings and that would make things clearer. It didn’t. Even at full volume it was a struggle to hear when travelling at anything above 60mph but maybe they're all like that! I normally wear earplugs when riding but even at the lower speeds with the highest volume level it was still difficult to hear and even without earplugs it was a competition between road noise, wind noise and the speakers. I wear a helmet size that actually fits properly and my hearing is fine so that was a little disappointing. I returned home and then tried to pair it with my wife's helmet to test the intercom. No joy. The instructions were fairly straight forward but it simply didn’t seem to work very well at all. It really should be this difficult should it! I tried connecting them back up to the Cardo Community (the place where you can link the units via your computer and then make adjustments) to see if there were some alternative settings. However, neither unit was now recognised by Cardo. Strange I thought….maybe I was tired or the internet was playing up so I put my new toys down to return the next day. Refreshed and keen once more I tried connecting the intercom function….nope, nothing, zilch, nada. Bugger. I tried connecting them to the ‘community’ again and still they were not recognised. I know ... Factory reset - control alt delete …..standard operating procedure right. Wrong….nope, nothing, zilch, nada. Double bugger! I emailed Cardo and unexpectedly received an email back within a few hours stating that the ‘community’ was no longer used and that all adjustments were done via the ‘app’. A bit strange as the ‘community’ remains active and nothing on Cardo pages state this. Not to worry. I connected one device to the app…..nope, nothing, zilch, nada. I tried the other device….and you know what’s coming….triple bugger! So now neither device connects to the ‘community’ or the app rendering me unable to make any further adjustments to any of the settings. Maybe they were faulty units but it really shouldn’t be this difficult and in any event the sound quality was poor and not as expected at all but thankfully returned to Amazon for full refund. So back to the drawing board.  

Bart1664 said: I emailed Cardo and unexpectedly received an email back within a few hours stating that the ‘community’ was no longer used to update Packtalk and Freecom units and that all adjustments were done via the ‘app’. A bit strange as the ‘community’ remains active (but is still relevant for earlier units such as my Q1) and nothing on Cardo pages state this (registered Cardo users should have received an e-mail to this effect) . Not to worry. I connected one device to the app…..nope, nothing, zilch, nada. I tried the other device….and you know what’s coming….triple bugger! Click to expand...

Cheney Triumph

• Jan 28, 2020

Omnipotent one

Ive got a Sena 30K It could be a lot better .. The mic is over sensitive, and keeps trying to intercom, mesh , whaterver if you have your visor up at all. Voice commands dont work. You can shout "hey sena" and i mean "feckin scream hey sena" and thats a feckin naf statement if ever there was one ..., and it does sod all Burp, and its trying to activate every command in its aresenal ffs earbits need driving hard to hear them through plugs & wind noise , which in turn meand the much touted super long battery life is halved  

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Arai Tour X4 Full-Face Helmet Review and Road Test and Video

Today, we’ll be taking a look at and road testing the Arai Tour X4 adventure helmet, the helmet that does it all.

If you want a helmet for your more adventurous trips, then the Arai Tour X4 , known as the Arai XD-4 in the US, will be right there with you. You can wear this road helmet three different ways with the visor and the combinations include with the peak with or without the visor, with the peak and a pair of goggles, or even without the peak and just with the visor. So, you can already start to get an idea of how this Arai helmet can range from a street touring helmet to one suited to adventure riding as well. This helmet will be coming in at a recommended retail price of about 650 Euros, or around 720 US Dollars. So, you are getting a premium helmet with all the options.  At this price range, the Arai TourX4 will be competing with the Shoei Hornet ADV , AGV AX-9 and the Schuberth E1 .

First, let’s start with the Arai TourX-4 ’s material. The Arai Tour X-4 ’s shell is made of Arai’s Complex Fibre Laminate construction, which is Arai’s own in house shell material that gives the helmet strength and impact flexibility. This also gives you a fairly light weight helmet since when we weighed the Arai Tour Ex-4 , we got a weight of 1620 grams in a size M with all the extras. Though for most helmets, this would be on the heavier end of the spectrum, this helmet was not designed with an explicit focus on weight. The helmet also comes in 5 shell sizes, which is impressive since few helmets come with this many shell sizes. The benefit of more shell sizes is that the helmet’s fit will be better, which will also improve safety since you’re getting a properly proportioned helmet. This will also be a safe helmet since it’s ECE, DOT, and SNELL certified as well. The helmet also has a very round profile, which is what Arai is known for, to focus on the helmet glancing off of any surface during an impact.

Ventilation

Now, looking at the ventilation on this helmet, you’re getting plenty. In the chin, you’re getting a 3 position chin vent with an adjustable set of 12 air intake vents, which should be really good whether you’re out touring or hitting the dirt. You can also close the vent from the inside so you don’t have to breathe in any dust while demisting your visor. In the brow, you’ve got two smaller vents that are also adjustable into open and closed positions to let some air in through the EPS. All this hot air will then come out this neck exhaust vent in the bottom of the helmet and a removable set of exhausts at the top rear of the helmet. So you can also remove them if you need to clean your helmet. Lastly, you’ve also got some side exhausts to help with getting all that warm air out as soon as possible as well.

Onto the visor now and you’re getting a pinlock prepared visor with the anti-fog pinlock insert also in the box. So, this means that even in the worst fogging conditions, your visor should stay as clear as it ever was. This helmet's large visor opening offers plenty of room for a pair of goggles and a good field of view. Looking at the peak, it’s been designed by Arai in such a way as to prevent lifting while you’re riding and instead forcing all that oncoming air into the two brow vents so you get even more cooling. If you want to remove the visor or the peak, it’s pretty straightforward, though you will need a screwdriver. Though from a full-face helmet this does seem a bit high to have to use a screwdriver, given the fact that this helmet is so versatile and a lot of other helmets for motocross are only made for goggles, I’m willing to let it slide.

Now, let’s take a look at the Arai TourX Four ’s liner. To start with, it’s Arai’s Dry-Cool Liner so it’s removable, washable, and moisture wicking. However, you can really see that Arai really went in on the comfort here to try and justify that high price mark. First, this helmet features Arai’s Facial Contour System (FCS) for short, which means the cheek pads have foam spring supports to more effectively have a snug fit without giving too much pressure. To further enhance the helmet’s comfort, it includes 5mm “Peel Away” foam layers on the cheek pads and the temple, so if you need a bit more space in the helmet, you can have it. The helmet should have a more intermediate-oval head fit. Lastly, for safety, the Arai Tour X-IV has an Emergency Release System (ERS) in the cheek pads. To take out the liner is fairly easy and straightforward, first all you need to do is slide out the cheek pads they snap out and slide out from the chin strap. You can see the double d ring chin strap. They’re thick and look comfortable for a good fit. For the res t of the liner, there are 4 snaps on the comfort liner to undo to get them out. What’s nice about the liner is it has multiple levels to help with comfort and ventilation. The only unfortunate thing is we have to EPS grooves in this helmet, but we’ll see how well it ventilates out on the road.

With all the specs over with, let’s see how this helmet did out on the road.

Arai Tour X4 Road Test

Just a reminder for how we measure our road tests. For the temperature, we used a thermometer placed in the top of the helmet to measure helmet’s internal temperature in degrees C. For noise, we used a decibel meter taking measurements from a microphone placed near our rider’s ear. We also used an anemometer to measure the day’s wind speed.

We tested the Tour X4 on a cool day with the sun out so we could also gauge the effectiveness of the Arai’s peak. During our road test, our rider rode on long stretches of highway at about 130 km/h. The day’s wind speed ranged between 110 km/h and 130 km/h. For ventilation, the Tour X-4’s many vents did not let this helmet down since the helmet’s internal temperature was about 8 degrees while it was 7 degrees Celsius outside, so that’s a very good 1-degree difference. For noise, this helmet was also very fairly quiet with about an average of 102 decibels of noise.

Our rider found the helmet to be very comfortable and performed similarly to the Shoei Hornet ADV . Since we rode on a sunny day, he also found that the peak blocked out the sun effectively and didn’t lift too much when looking ahead. He ultimately commented that the Tour X4 was slightly quieter than the Shoei HornetADV , but it was also slightly less comfortable though both still did well in this category with its intermediate oval head fit, double D-ring chin strap, and emergency release cheek pads. Now, let’s see how the Tour X4 ranked.

Arai Tour X4 Champion Helmets Score

For material, since the shell comes in 5 shell sizes and the material is Arai’s super laminate construction, that’s a strong 4 stars. For weight, since this is an adventure helmet it came out about a heavier 1600 grams, giving this helmet 3 stars for weight. For ventilation, this helmet did well, with about a 1 degree difference to the outside temperature, so that’s another 4 stars and a big improvement over the Shoei Hornet ADV. For noise as well, this helmet did well with an average of about 102 decibels giving the Tour X4 3 stars for noise. This helmet was also comfortable, giving the Tour X4 4 stars for comfort. This will bring the Tour X 4 to a total of 3.5 stars with each star costing 30 Euros/star. So, this is ½ a star better than the Shoei Hornet ADV though the Tour X4 is about 4 Euros/star more so it’s a bit more in terms of value for money than the Shoei and the main gripe would be about the visor and peak removal systems.

If you’d like to purchase the Arai Tour X4 , then make sure to check out our website at ChampionHelmets.com where we have a lowest price guarantee and bundle deals with Bluetooth communication systems.

So, that’s all for the Arai Tour X4, it’s a solid premium adventure helmet that will give you all the options you’d like with the performance and safety to match. It was comfortable, the peak was effective, and the ventilation was strong, leaving the biggest failing of the helmet with the visor and peak removal systems requiring a screwdriver. Nonetheless, it does perform better for ventilation than the Shoei Hornet ADV. So, if you grab you Gore-Tex jacket and this helmet, you should be ready for pretty much anything the weather can throw at you. If you’re still curious about the Arai Tour X4, make sure to check out our Arai Tour X4 Review and Road Test Video , and don’t forget to subscribe to our YouTube channel .

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Anyone w/ Cardo PackTalk Slim with Arai Xd-4 / Tour X

Discussion in ' Equipment ' started by kevinA , Jan 23, 2020 .

kevinA Long timer

It appears yours has the same crack that is caused by the case of the unit being over stressed to conform to the shape of the helmet same as mine.

Attached Files:

A597ec04-ca8c-4140-815b-bd04256a4ede.jpeg.

Your unit, not mine @Cardo-scala rider

EB77CA92-4A8A-4DDD-8046-A1602C266BC5.jpeg

43786a60-6b9d-4c46-80b9-81bbee73bcbd.jpeg.

Cuchulainn Y.Me

No idea what you are saying or trying to point out there tbh. It fits just fine. I don't see any signs of stress or crack and that one has been on and off several times. If anything I didn't take the time to properly secure the rubber cover and unfortunately, Cardo did a lousy job with that. It is flimsy and fits poorly at best. In all honesty, and I think I mentioned it earlier in the thread, you are better off getting them to exchange it for the PackTalk Bold. Read some of the threads here and on other forums. Read some of the reviews on Revzilla and on Amazon. The micro-usb port is a bigger issue than fit, regardless of what make/model helmet it is installed to. From examples from Amazon: 'I have owned the packtalk slim for 4 months. in this time I have used and charged it about 8 times where I plug in the charger. I went to plug in my pillions unit and it felt like I wasn't in all the way and the charge light did not light, so I pulled the usb charger out to try again and was greeted with the guts of the usb port on my charging cable." "Usb port broke twice, two separate slim uniuts... huge problem for me when i was doing a southwest trip!" "When the device worked it was great but 40 days later and only a couple of uses the device is not charging. " "The biggest issue was tho, after 2-3 weeks of using, just before our big touring trip, charging port came off together with the cable on one of the headsets." Examples From Revzilla: "USB port died after one year. CAN'T GET CARDO TO ANSWER THE PHONE OR EMAIL!!!" "In late April I left home on a spring time road trip and on day two the charging port on the Slim pulled out when I unpluged the charging cable." 'Bought, installed, liked it better than the slim Sena it replaced. I'm a commuter, it gets tons of use, and the charging port broke." There are many more just like it, but i don't want to take up to much space :) I am NOT saying that all units will fail (my wife's still works, I had 2 fail), but they do fail at a higher than the acceptable rate for the cost imho. Edit: Sorry it is so blurry and the part is long gone so I can't reshoot, but this is part of the email I sent Cardo :)

I originally asked them for a part so I could attach the unit without the fin or to change it to a bold unit since the second unit in the set is successfully installed in a different brand helmet. That’s why I don’t understand why this company decided to make things so difficult and not respond for 10 days even after checking in several times and the only response I got was asking if my problem had been resolved. I’ve sent them the photos of the unit attempting to be installed and how it separated the seams of the unit while it is installed or partially 8nstalled so the seams of the case are split open exposing the internals of the lower portion of the unit.

The way that unit works with the fin, I am not sure how well it would mount without it. They likely don't have a part to make it work. What did they tell you in regards to swapping it for a bold? They sent me out a replacement dual set of Bolds, despite my wife's unit still working. Communication with them was really difficult, but luckily the issues all occurred within the return period. So when I contacted them to tell them that I was returning them, is when they finally replied with the solution of sending the Bolds as replacements. Not the best customer service by any means, but Sena is often not great either and in the end the did the right thing. That said, if the Bolds eventually fail, I might look elsewhere. Maybe back to Sena. The biggest issue we have had with the Sena units is that they aren't waterproof and have on occasion cut out and quit working until they dry. That said, I still have a bunch of Sena units going back to the SMH-10 that still keep working, even if they do quit for a day after heavy rain. They all seem to have some kind of issue. Post those photos on their FB page, it will likely get a quicker reaction from Cardo than on here.

XD4FAN n00b

I just purchased mine from Revzilla and had the same problem while installing it. I tried to be extra careful as I had read this post before and asked the Revzilla “Gear Geeks” about the fitting and they said they hadn’t come across any problems on their gear. The lack of Cardo’s knowledge on the XD-4 also shows as they recommend using the long tab on the installation and I only managed to fit the short & rounder one.

EEDEBE11-0907-461F-A112-0201CD8DD307.jpeg

It doesn’t fit. It was never designed to fit or be multi fit. This model was originally designed in collaboration with HJC under a different model name to fit HJC helmets. The tech guy is you’ll talk to is stubborn and will show you pics of one installed at a distance. The other person there realized it wasn’t as advertised and did not fit and broke/ was no longer water resistant from trying to fit it on and sent be a bold Unit and the bold is a better unit in every way. Speakers are louder, better sound, better reception. water is going to leak into the unit where it is stretch as well as the cover for the usb that no longer covers the usb send it back to revzilla or cardo as it doesn’t fit the helmet as advertised or represented or defective as it’s no longer water resistant

Thanks for the follow up Kevin. Sent a message to customer service, hope to get a response from their team soon. @ Cardo-scala rider I took a couple more pictures so other riders don't make the same mistake as we did, being deceived by brand about the compatibility of the helmet and packtalk slim. The page also mentions that the long clamp is needed to attach the battery on the back and I only managed to slip the short clamp in so they have probably never tested the unit in one of these helmets. I would expect them to take it down from their page after reading about their customer experience, it is extremely disappointing and frustrating. I hope the pictures help others out there looking into this model:

waffl Adventurer

I‘m late to the conversation but I‘m glad I found this thread as I was trying to decide between the two for my XD4 as I was quite interested in a slimmer profile. For what it‘s worth, Cardo seems to have removed the XD4 from their compatibility list for the slim.

DCAF0C8D-6114-4600-894D-F2721976257B.jpeg

jack_frost Cold? I’ve got sheep herder’s blood in me

Cuchulainn said: ↑ No idea what you are saying or trying to point out there tbh. It fits just fine. I don't see any signs of stress or crack and that one has been on and off several times. If anything I didn't take the time to properly secure the rubber cover and unfortunately, Cardo did a lousy job with that. It is flimsy and fits poorly at best. In all honesty, and I think I mentioned it earlier in the thread, you are better off getting them to exchange it for the PackTalk Bold. Read some of the threads here and on other forums. Read some of the reviews on Revzilla and on Amazon. The micro-usb port is a bigger issue than fit, regardless of what make/model helmet it is installed to. From examples from Amazon: 'I have owned the packtalk slim for 4 months. in this time I have used and charged it about 8 times where I plug in the charger. I went to plug in my pillions unit and it felt like I wasn't in all the way and the charge light did not light, so I pulled the usb charger out to try again and was greeted with the guts of the usb port on my charging cable." "Usb port broke twice, two separate slim uniuts... huge problem for me when i was doing a southwest trip!" "When the device worked it was great but 40 days later and only a couple of uses the device is not charging. " "The biggest issue was tho, after 2-3 weeks of using, just before our big touring trip, charging port came off together with the cable on one of the headsets." Examples From Revzilla: "USB port died after one year. CAN'T GET CARDO TO ANSWER THE PHONE OR EMAIL!!!" "In late April I left home on a spring time road trip and on day two the charging port on the Slim pulled out when I unpluged the charging cable." 'Bought, installed, liked it better than the slim Sena it replaced. I'm a commuter, it gets tons of use, and the charging port broke." There are many more just like it, but i don't want to take up to much space :) I am NOT saying that all units will fail (my wife's still works, I had 2 fail), but they do fail at a higher than the acceptable rate for the cost imho. Edit: Sorry it is so blurry and the part is long gone so I can't reshoot, but this is part of the email I sent Cardo :) Click to expand...

jack_frost said: ↑ You mentioned the Senas. Did you ever try the 10U model? I’ve seen a post of an install on an XD 4 that looked really nice. Just wondering. Seems the only downside is you can’t charge the unit while using and it only has an active use of 10 hours, compared to the Packtalk. I really like how compact the 10U is. Trying to eliminate noise and not too keep of sticking a unit on the side. Click to expand...

Cuchulainn said: ↑ I have a 10U installed in a Shuberth C3Pro. I like the unit in general, particularly with the handlebar remote. I haven't had a lot of problems with the 10-hour limit, because you can always top it off a little during a lunch break or whatever. But I don't use the C3 Pro as much as the XD4 either. Can you not charge the unit while charging it? I had forgotten that, and Senas own site seems to offer opposing info on that. I believe the charging instructions say it will turn off while charging, while the unit comparison chart has "Use While Charging" checked. I will have to try it again. The 10U has three other negatives that may or may not be important to you. It lacks support for Navigation Apps, audio multitasking, and voice commands. Click to expand...

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Arai XD-4 Helmet - Full Review

Since the untimely demise of my LS2 Pioneer Evo, I have been looking at new helmets. If you have the chance to look at what people are wearing, I think you would agree that there are 2 very popular helmets out there. The Airoh Commander and Arai XD-4. The Airoh Commander retails in NZ for around the $750 mark, while the Arai XD-4 demands a premium at $1099 RRP.

I have ridden in an Airoh Commander for a while and had the opportunity to pick up this Arai XD-4 to compare. While this is not a comparison story, I think these facts are important to outline, to begin with.

When I first put the Arai XD-4 on, I was surprised at how comfortable it was straight out of the box. While most helmets require a bit of time to bed in and form to the shape of your face, the XD-4 was solid and comfortable, with loads of room around my ears. So much room, in fact, it felt like I may not have had the padding in the shell correctly. The helmet gripped where it should, around the crown and jaw.

It was when I installed my Cardo Packtalk Edge, that things took a turn for the worse. The right-hand speaker slotted in perfectly, with no pressure points or anything to complain about. The left however was a completely different story. It then took me about a week of minor adjustments to get the speaker in the padding in a place where I would hear it properly and it wouldn't put pressure on my left ear. Sure, this is not the helmet's fault, but something to think about if you are in the market. Using the Cardo with the clamp mount, the left-hand cheek pad is now easily dislodged and often needs re-seating before putting the helmet on, so possibly think about using the adhesive mount instead.

All that said, I now have the helmet set up to my liking with Cardo system and everything is comfortable enough to wear for a full day of riding.

The XD-4 has excellent ventilation, with 3 chin-bar vents, 2 visor vents, and another 2 brow vents, as well as exhaust vents, all of which are independently opened or closed. The helmet can also be used with a clear visor, tinted visor (both available with Pinlock) or goggles.  

The helmet is fastened with a double-D system, which is classic and widely trusted. Though some may like and even prefer a clip/ratchet system. I found the left-hand chinstrap with the double-D system on it very short, so you often find yourself fighting to get the helmet done up

The peak doesn't catch as much wind as you might think it does. I can't say I've noticed any feeling of my head being jerked around by the wind.

When I first started wearing the XD-4 I noticed it was a very quiet helmet, with minimal wind noise. Having a peak will mean it is always going to be noisier than a Streat helmet but in comparison to other ADV helmets, it's one of the better ones out there. However, a full day in the saddle at motorway speeds will leave you wishing you had a set of earplugs.

Conclusion It's a great helmet. it does what it says on the box. But, and this is a big but... I don't really see what all the hype is about. I have what I would classify as better helmets with cheaper price tags and similar or slightly better comfort levels. That said, Arai doesn't do things by halves, they have a reputation for creating safe helmets, and they don't compromise on that, which is why you won't find an Arai with an internal dropdown sun visor. Arai is continually on the top 10 list of the world's safest helmets for a reason. and maybe that is the reason they can demand a premium.

At the end of the day - If you try this and a stack of other helmets on, and it fits best, then buy it. But don't be pressured to go for this if something else feels better. As I have said to many people before, you need to go to a shop with a wide range of helmets and try a stack of them on. Seriously, do this... and pick something that feels good, is safe, and looks good to you.

Update, I have since replaced the Cardo Packtalk Edge clamp mount with an adhesive mount on the shell of the Arai XD-4 and re-routed the speaker wires, this has improved the comfort of the helmet no end. It's almost as good as it was out of the box with no comms installed. so that's a good thing. If you are in a similar situation, I would recommend using the adhesive mount. This is the most difficult helmet I've had to install comms in, and it's taken a while to get it sorted, but good to know it's doable.

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• Regent Seven Seas Cruises

Best of Moscow by high speed train

By shuguley , February 15, 2014 in Regent Seven Seas Cruises

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Sure would appreciate someone who has taken "Best of Moscow by high speed train" from St. Petersburg could please share their impressions of this shore excursion. From the description this sounds like a very long day.

Wondering how the 4 hour train trip was in terms of accommodations, etc. Also what time did you leave the ship and what time at night did you return? Were both legs of the trip on the high speed rail (I read that slower trains also travel the same tracks)?

My wife and I are considering this excursion. We thought that if we are making all the effort to go to Russia then how could we pass up going to Moscow, walking in Red Square, seeing St. Basil, etc.

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If you are considering this on the 2015 June Baltic cruise on Voyager; my suggestion is don't. There is so much to do in St. Petersburg and although a train is one of my favorite ways to travel the time would be far better spent in St. P.

Thanks for the advice. Yes, this would be on the Voyager during the 2015 season but not yet sure exactly which cruise.

We did the Moscow excursion "on a different luxury line", but from your brief description it sounds very much like the same trip, so I will operate on that assumption. It is a VERY long day! We left the ship at 5:30 AM and returned at 12:30 AM. The highspeed train trip is comfortable, and while they call it "Business Class" it does not compare well to the equivalent class on say Rail Europe. When we did it in 2011, we did have highspeed both ways, and the trip back seemed much longer as the adrenaline and excitement had worn off!:D

Moscow itself is not that terribly different from any other big city in the world, but this Cold War kid never thought he would ever stand in Red Square, never mind walk the grounds of The Kremlin, or tour The Kremlin Palace, or see (but not visit) Lenin's Tomb, or visit The Armoury. But he did, and he loved every minute of it! Yes, it is a long day, and you barely scratch a scratch on the surface, but it is worth it. There is a tremendous amount to see in St. Petersburg, but every Baltic cruise goes to St. Petersburg, so you can go back if you choose to. Not every cruiseline offers you the chance to see Moscow.

I have not personally done this tour, but our last time in St Petersburg, the private guide that we hired for a day was leading the regent tour to Moscow on the high speed train the next day. He said it was way better than the previous alternative, which was flying to Moscow and back. He said that you actually got to Moscow faster because you didn't have to deal with airline checkin etc. it did seem like a very long day to me, and there is so much to see and do in st. Petersburg that I didn't consider doing it.

countflorida

We toured to Moscow from St. Petersburg via the hi-speed SAPSAN train last September, from a Baltic cruise on the Oceania Marina. You need to have a two-night, three day port call in St. Petersburg to take this tour because the tour typically leaves the ship around 5:00 - 5:30 AM and doesn't return until after midnight the next day. We didn't take the ship's tour; we made private arrangements with TravelAllRussia for three days of touring, the first and third days in St. Petersburg and the second day the tour to Moscow by train. Our cost for the private tour for three days was about the same as what the ship charged for the excursion to Moscow alone. There are a number of private tour agencies that operate in St. Petersburg and offer the Moscow train tours; we would strongly recommend them over the ship's tours.

All three days had private guides with car and driver. The second day, the driver picked us up at the ship and took us to the train, but we were alone on the train, and met in Moscow by the guide on the station platform. After our tour and dinner, we were brought back to the train and after the return train trip met by the driver and taken back to the ship. Because you are alone on the train you must have your own Russian visas.

If this is your first visit to St. Petersburg, I would agree there is much more to see there. We found Moscow somewhat a disappointment, particularly Red Square. The Kremlin and the cathedral in Red Square were also worth seeing. But the best thing we saw was the Moscow subway! I worked for the Washington Metro system back in the 1980s as it grew from 40 to 80 miles and although I was in the computer area, I learned a lot about the challenges of running a subway system. We used the Moscow system to get across the city from where we had dinner to the train station, and I was amazed at the cleanliness', speed of operation, the short headways maintained, and the courtesy of everyone involved. A very impressive experience!

We had been to St. Petersburg before, and so had the time to take a day and go to Moscow. Also, I really like trains, and the SAPSAN is a German train set running on Russian rails. Seats are like first class domestic air, spacious but not too plush or comfortable, but with enough room. Not too much recline, and almost 8 hours on the train in two shots is a lot for an old man. They come through and sell drinks, candy, etc. but the sellers don't speak English and no one around us helped, so we had just poor coffee once coming, and brought stuff with us for the trip back. Not too much to see from the train either, particularly on the return when it is night the whole way.

If you decide to go, take a private tour and avoid the overly expensive ship's tour. I'm glad we did it, but wouldn't bother to repeat the tour; we've seen Moscow.

Thanks so much to all of you for the thorough and thought insight. Yhe information you have provided is most helpful.

countflorida: Your detailed post is very helpful. We are not quite ready for a Baltic cruise but should do so within a year. Time enough to do our pre travel research, bookings and visa gathering.:) Thank you!

Emperor Norton

Sure would appreciate someone who has taken "Best of Moscow by high speed train" from St. Petersburg could please share their impressions of this shore excursion. From the description this sounds like a very long day.   Wondering how the 4 hour train trip was in terms of accommodations, etc. Also what time did you leave the ship and what time at night did you return? Were both legs of the trip on the high speed rail (I read that slower trains also travel the same tracks)?   My wife and I are considering this excursion. We thought that if we are making all the effort to go to Russia then how could we pass up going to Moscow, walking in Red Square, seeing St. Basil, etc.

I did this on Seabourn. IMO DONT. Take Aeroflop (er Aeroflot). The train has non folding seats where you are literally knee to knee with your fellow passenger (facing each other). Further they don't believe in air conditioning. It's also the worlds slowed bullet train. I think I would have found more enjoyment wandering around the St. Petersburg and Moscow airports.

Countflorida,

This is a little off topic,, however we had planned a river cruise in Russia but decided we would rather stay on land and have booked about two weeks with Travel-All-Russia using the private guide and driver. I'm curious as to how you found them as a tour company.

The guides they provided were fine. We had a different guide each of the days in St. Petersburg, but both were flexible, pleasant, knowledgeable and spoke English very well, as did the guide in Moscow, incidentally. She was a bit aloof, distant, not too friendly, but otherwise fine. In fact, she was the one who suggested taking the Metro, which unexpectedly became one of the highlights of the Moscow excursion. If I have a complaint with AllTravelRussia, it is with their plan and its execution (more later).

I had requested emphasis on World War II (in Russia, the Great Patriotic War) sites and info. In scheduling us, they weren't careful about dates and a couple of the sites we wanted to see were scheduled on the third day, after we'd been to Moscow. But both sites were closed that day of the week, and that info was readily available, right on web sites describing them. Also, the included meals (lunches in St. Pete, dinner in Moscow) were not what we asked for: light meals with some choices, so we could avoid things we didn't like and choose things we did like. My request was ignored; we were given full Russian meals with a fixed menu, no choice. On the first day, a fish dish was the entre, but I am allergic to fish. Fortunately, I had the e-mail I'd sent with me and showed it to the guide, and she was able to change my entre to chicken, which was very good actually. But we didn't want a 3-4 course lunches or dinner (in Moscow). We had the guide drop the lunch the third day, although we never got any credit or refund. But, particularly in contrast to the ship's tours, the prices were so reasonable we didn't worry too much about it.

The people who were on the ship's tour to Moscow saw us boarding the same train for which they were forced to queue up and wait on the way back, and asked us what we had done. I was candid and open so they were not happy when I explained what we had arranged and particularly what it had cost. Also, when we returned to the ship, we found they had laid on a late supper for those who had gone to Moscow, so up we went and had something. Well, it turns out the late supper was supposed to be just for those on the ship's tour, but we and others on 'independent' tours, there were a dozen or more of us, crashed the party, actually got there first, and they didn't realize it until the larger group arrived and there weren't enough tables/places set. By that time, the 'independents' had all gotten served and were eating; what could they do?

A couple from the larger group sat down with us and asked us about our tour, and they were the ones I told about our arrangement and its cost. They turned to others who’d been with them and announced the details, loudly enough so the whole room heard, which started a lot of bitching and complaining. I gathered they weren't very happy with the ship's tour to begin with, and this was the straw that broke the camel's back. We finished up and beat it out of there, but overheard later that one of the excursion staff came to check on something and ran into a real mess. I caught a cold on the trip, which forced me to bed the second day following in Tallinn, so by the time we reappeared we heard about the contretemps' but apparently no one recalled who started it, thankfully.

Because of what happened to us, I would probably not use AllTravelRussia if I were to go again, or if I did, I would be sure to get confirmation of every detail of the tour. They do have good reviews generally, and we were certainly helped by their visa department and liked the guides and drivers. Their weakness, I say now with full 20:20 hindsight, is that once the sales person who plans the tour, sells it to you and collects your money, he (or she) transfers the plan to their Russia office for implementation; there is no follow-up to make sure it gets done right. And that is where our problems arose; we paid for a custom tour but got a standard package with a few destinations switched, and no one checked them out, even to see when they were open the day we were scheduled to go. If you check every detail that’s important to you, it should be OK, but that’s a hell of a way to have to do business, in my opinion.

Thank you for the 20/20 hindsight observation on your Russian tour operator, and better priced than the ship's excursion cost.

Thanks very much for the feedback.

We had the same experience as you so far as price. We originally booked a Viking Cruise but, hearing some things about the river cruises that made us unhappy, looked into other options. T-A-R cost the same or less than a cruise and had us in hotels for 11 days. We opted for the private tour. They have three tour levels, based on hotels. We originally opted for the four star as it did not cost much more than the three star hotels. Finally we decided to throw it all in and upgraded to five star. In Moscow we will be at the newly opened Kempinsky which is two blocks from Red Square. In St. Petersburg it is the Grand Hotel Europe, one of the most vaunted luxury hotels in Russia. Location is important for us as the tours use up only part of the day so being in the center of everything for our independent touring is important. As with many other cities, the less you pay, the farther out of the center of town you are.

We have been working with our salesman in D.C. and he seems to get back to us with the changes we want. He recently returned from Russia so is up on everything. When I asked they said they paid the full TA commission if I wanted so I got my usual TA on board so he is watching our back and giving us that extra level of comfort. He also set up our air, which I know pays him little or nothing, and got us business class for much less than T-A-R wanted for economy, though it took working for a while with a consolidator. He's happy to get his 10 percent on this trip without having booked it. He also took care of the trip insurance. We've been doing a lot of research on the CC sister site Trip Advisor and will write a report there. We will, I guess, become a source of info for CC members after having spent 5 days in Moscow and 6 in SP.

• 4 months later...

scubacruiserx2

Anybody considering a day trip to Moscow from St. Petersburg on the Sapsan may want to look at our travelogue filled with pictures.

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=1927687

Very informative. Thanks dor sharing. Jeff

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